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Everybody Else's Problem

"Personally I don't think things will ever change (and that therefore, no one need argue or worry here there will be puppies left homeless) unless there is legislation requiring health testing, or alternatively (or also) legislation giving puppy buyers the kind of consumer protection you would get with other consumer purchases, that would make all breeders (including the BYB and puppy farmer) financially liable to pay healthcare costs if they produced a puppy with a genetic illness IF they failed to test the parents and therefore ensure that at least they knew their dogs had a clean bill of health and they followed breeding protocols at the time of breeding. Fortunately proposals along these lines are being actively considered in the UK and may be imposed -- there's a lot of scrutiny right now on the kennel Club and cavalier breeders in particular to see if they will take responsible decisions for the breed or continue to pretend that either little is wrong or that every health effort is pointless. Not even the UK Club national committee will take a stand for health, lead by example and publicly commit to its own club's recommendations for best breeding practice."

While I don't always agree with you, I can get on board with this. Breeders who choose to breed knowing their lines are affected ought to bear some responsibility.
 
It's genetics, you can't breed the problems out. I think it's misleading for people to adopt that position.

What? Have you studied genetics? Because if 'it's genetics', then of course it can be bred out -- the same way a nicely shaped head can be bred in.

Clare Rusbridge:

Why MRI screen?
To determine if the dog has syringomyelia. Early estimates of the heritability of syringomyelia suggest that it is high and consequently it should be possible to select against dogs with syringomyelia - i.e. removing dogs with syringomyelia from the breeding program will lessen the chance of syringomyelia in the offspring.

ie: SM has a genetic basis, it is highly heritable; removing dogs with SM from breeding problems lowers the chance of SM; it is possible to breed away from the condition IF you test, over time. All research so far shows this CAN be minimised and eventually, bred out -- for a start, as with MVD, by following protocols and proper testing you can select for late onset/lower severity. There is good evidence from the Dutch breeders and from griffon breeders that this is the case.

I think maybe it would help to read more of Clare's Rusbridge's as well as Rod's site. Both list ongoing research, and explain what work is being done WITH support from geneticists (including one of the leading genetics researchers worldwide in finding the genetic basis for diseases). EFS and Curly Coat Syndrome also have a genetic basis -- and you can definitely now test and breed away from both those conditions. Even without a genetic test, breeders can breed away from MVD and SM just as they can breed for complex inherited traits they desire in their show dogs.

Please also go reread the Getting Started section on what is appropriate to post. Insulting other board members someone disagrees with is the basis for being removed from the board. I haven't had to do that in a long time and especially would not wish to do this with someone getting support from members because they have an ill dog -- but I will do it immediately if I see one more comment like the Hitler comment to another board member.

I will also close this thread if it cannot remain on topic.
 
don't support puppy farms

Oh my God thankyou for bringing back my faith in mankind. I posted earlier today on the 'PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED thread as I was shocked that someone suggested that we may need to use puppy farm pups to breed sm out of the breed. I couldnt believe that anyone on this site would even dream of such a thing. Have they not looked at the pictures and videos on the many sites that are fighting to stop this barbaric trade? We bought our gorgeous Rossi from a kennels where we live because we were ignorant an uneducated about sm and also the puppy farm trade. Rossi has now been diagnosed with sm at 6 years of age. We think he came from a puppy farm in Wales as his breeder has a welsh name and there are dogs on his pedigree, which I know now counts for nothing, with welsh names and I NOW KNOW THAT THE HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF PUPPY FARMS ARE IN WALES. I too am glad that we bought Rossi and that he is being well loved and looked after, but I would never buy a dog from a kennels wiyh multiple breeds for sale ever again , or from a pet shop. It is better to save thousands of dogs than to save one. The only way to stop this torture of dogs is to stop buying their puppies. Only this will close the puppy farms for ever. PLEASE FORCE YOURSELVES TO LOOK AT THE VIDEOS AND PICTURES ON THE ANTI PUPPY FARM SITES SUCH AS 'PUPPY LOVE' AND MAKE YOUR OWN MINDS UP. iT TOOK A LOT FOR ME TO DO IT. Now I am glad I did because now my eyes are open to the suffering of these animals and I am determined to do something about it.
 
Goda wrote: It's genetics, you can't breed the problems out.

Actually, you can. A few years ago, Irish Setters developed a hereditary genetic condition called Night Blindness (I can't remember the proper name for it). It was very widespread in the breed. Today, virtually no Irish Setter suffers from Night Blindness. Why? Because the Irish Setter breeders set themselves the task of breeding away from the disease and were absolutely dedicated about not using affected animals for breeding and insisting that offspring suffering from the disease were not bred from. It can be done - which is why it is frustrating when some Cavalier breeders can't even be bothered to try. And why those who spend a lot of time and money trying to breed away from SM deserve our support.

There are also some promising results in Cavaliers in Holland and Griffons in Australia, where breeders have followed the advice of the researchers and have now bred several generations of dogs who are so far clear of SM. (Sorry Karlin, wrote this before I read your post!)

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
My question is what about the other Cavaliers, ones that are not bred responsibly? If you love the breed, you love them despite the health consequences.

I love them,I just won't pay a cent to an irresponsible breeder.I work too hard for my money to see it squandered to feed someone's greed.

That's the kind of mentality Hitler had towards Jews, gays, minorities, people with disabilities.
And what about the mentality of the breeders who keep their dogs in small crates and pens in the barn,ankle deep in faeces?
Who take out their oldies out of the barn and the first time they see daylight is moments before they're shot in the back of the head or clubbed with an iron bar..or do their own c sections without anaesthetic?
How do you feel about supporting this industry?
Every time you buy a puppy from an unknown source you are indirectly supporting these breeders and prolonging the ordeal for the dogs in those hellholes.
Remember,that lovely mum and litter of puppies you see in someone's front room may have been put there by a puppy farmer,and the householder is telling you that they bred the litter themselves.
Buying from show breeders who refuse to test is stupid as well.Why would you do it if you had a choice?
Yes,the puppies may need our love,but I have one who needs a lot more than love to keep her going.She needs gabapentin,frusemide and Rimadyl.
The grim reality is that we can't keep her going forever and no amount of love can alter that fact.
I would rather hand over my money to a breeder who invests it back into his/her dogs.Who invests in their care and nutrition,in their physical and psychological wellbeing.A breeder who thinks enough of the people who buy their puppies,that they try to ensure that the pet they sell is as fit and healthy and it's parents screened for the common inherited illnesses.I'd prefer to show my love for the breed by dealing with a breeder who cares what happens to the puppy and who's interested in it's progress and welfare.
If people who know the facts still want to gamble on the life of their canine family member,then by all means go ahead.
Sins
 
What really bothers me though is when I read these posts discouraging prospective Cavalier King Charles Owners from buying a puppy if it the parents haven't been MRI scanned for SM and MVD scanned for heart issues.  I understand that as responsible pet owners we should further and support the cause of responsible breeding. Really I do..

But you look at Luka and feel disloyal because if you had supported responsible breeding you would not have bought him?


My question is what about the other Cavaliers, ones that are not bred responsibly? If you love the breed, you love them despite the health consequences. I understand that the public and people in general and I am one of those people by the way. I bought my dogs because of their breed's personality, I didn't want to show my dog. I wanted a companion and someone to love and to love me when I came home. .

I have loved the breed for thirty five years. I love them enough not to stand by and watch painful conditions spread further through the breed.
Most cavaliers, even from show bred litters end up being sold as pets. However they are bred, do not all puppies deserve the best possible chance of a long healthy pain free life?

When we got Luka, he had an overbite, he grew out of it but it didn't stop me from falling in love with him and wanting to give him a happy and safe home. Even now that he is sick and costing us dearly I go without frivolous activities like movies and concerts so I can provide him with a happy home.

So here is my question, every time you discourage someone from buying a Luka because he has not been MRI scanned and MVD scanned, you are saying that the dog should be somebody else's problem..

You may be willing to go without fun things to care for a sick dog but many people would not be willing or able to do so. What happens to that carelessly bred dog then?
If people continue to knowingly buy from bad breeders they perpetuate the misery.


Is that any mindset to have when we think of this breed? Run the other way and let it be somebody else's problem?.

Nobody is running the other way, but if breeders breed sick dogs it is actually their problem. If they cannot sell them they will stop breeding.


In no way am I saying we shouldn't encourage people to scan their dogs and exhibit responsible breeding protocols but what about those that don't or simply can't afford to do it, or just don't know any better?.

Nobody has a God given right to breed dogs. If you don't breed responsibly or cannot afford to do it correctly then nobody should reward you by putting money in your pocket.
Someone will know better when they are asked for certificates they cannot produce and the buyer walks away.


I know education is key here, it disheartens me to read some of these posts because even if all the Cavaliers I own get SM, I know I will be there to give them the best life I can because somebody has to. If they are going to be "anyone's" problem it is mine. We can't all run from the problems. They need help too.

We all give our SM cavaliers the best life we can, nobody here is suggesting that owners of sick cavaliers should shuffle the problem off to someone else.

I have spent years watching my SM dogs suffer. I love them but I feel they and I were robbed of years of carefree enjoyment we should have had together.

I have listened to owners crying on the phone because they have put their screaming puppy to sleep. Three year old affected cavaliers, beloved family pets, have been donated to the tissue collection.
As far as I am concerned my loyalty to my SM dogs involves trying to make sure no other dog suffers as they have done.

Nobody blames a pet owner for buying without checking on health clearances when they do not know, but to buy knowing that the breeder has not bothered means that you make it worthwhile for irresponsible breeders to cut corners and produce increasing numbers of SM affected dogs like Luka.

Why not reward the breeders that do the right things by buying from them?
 
What are you talking about? Have you studied genetics? If 'it's genetics', then of COURSE it can be bred out -- the same way a nicely shaped head can be bred in.

All research so far shows this CAN be minimised and eventually, bred out -- for a start, as with MVD, by follwoing protocols and proper testing you can select for late onset/lower severity. There is good evidence from the Dutch breeders and from griffon breeders that this is the case.

I think maybe it would help to read more of Clare's Rusbridge's as well as Rod's site. Both list ongoing research, and explain what work is being done WITH support from geneticists (including one of the leading genetics researchers worldwide in finding the genetic basis for diseases). EFS and Curly Coat Sydorme also have a genetic basis -- and you can definitely now test and breed away from both those conditions. Even without a genetic test, breeders can breed away from MVD and SM just as they can breed for complex inherited traits they desire in their show dogs.

Please also go reread the Getting Started section on w hat is appropriate to post. Insulting other board members someone disagrees with is the basis for being removed from the board. I haven't had to do that in a long, long time and especially would not wish to do this with someone getting much support from members because they have an ill dog -- but I will do it if I see one more comment like the Hitler comment to another board member.

I will aslo close this thread if it cannot remain on topic.

I am going to spare you that need, this mentality of breeding the perfect healthy dogs is no different than those who. You know never mind.

Not all SM is a result of genetics.
 
Not all SM is a result of genetics.

No, there is a tiny, tiny proportion that comes from impact injuries. That form in dogs is so rare that most vets and neurologist never will see such a case. Ask your neurologist how many impact-induced cases of SM she has seen. There is also a spinal bifida type in some breeds like Ridgebacks, but that is clearly genetic as well. SM in cavaliers is widespread, the current genetics research already clearly shows high heritability, and I do not know anyone who seriously believes SM in cavaliers is caused only by some outside factor.

You have really not absorbed much here I guess. You seem to be arguing that breeders should not aim for the best health possible because it discriminates against dogs that are poorly bred and cheaper to buy -- logic I cannot understand. Or to put it another way -- you seem to be seeking an excuse for the fact that you clearly bought two puppies from a very poor breeder at a cheap price precisely because they were not doing any significant health testing -- the prices you paid are bargain basement for cavaliers, more typical of people like the Washington-based Claire Simmons, convicted of fraud and charged many times with animal cruelty.

No one here would ever say anyone shouldn't love any dog, of any sort, pure or mix, rescue or from a great breeder -- but supporting poor breeders is not 'discrimination' :sl*p: -- buying from them is cruel to every breeding dog they own, the puppies they produce and the future of the entire breed (and Luka, for that matter, who might not have been born with this condition had the breeder scanned the parents). No breeder will ever be able to guarantee health but a lot more can be done by breeders and puppy buyers like you and all here to ensure a better standard of health.

But as you seem to wish to be removed from the board, I have done so. Best of luck with Luka.
 
I am going to spare you that need, this mentality of breeding the perfect healthy dogs is no different than those who. You know never mind.

Not all SM is a result of genetics.




This mentality is of breeding not 'the perfectly healthy' dog but maybe just a future free from pain?

I for one wouldn't bewith out Ruby as she has taught me a lot and got me involved in the issues around SM but really, really should she have to suffer for the rest of her life just so I can increase my knowledge about something?

And what wrong with wanting a healthy dog?
 
I recently got an email from a breeder who I forgot put myself on the waiting list for another cav about 6 months before I found out about Blondies SM.
She wanted to know if i still was interested in getting a pup because I was now on top of the list.
I asked her if she scanned. She said "if i would have to scan all my dogs for SM I would be broke". She then went on about how ALL the pups she has bred in the last 8 years are still alive. She said SM is just not in her lines. She has several moms and dads that are over 6 so I said to her "broke" comment
that there is Ruperts FUnd that will fund her scans and that it would help the breed if her cavs are truly that healthy. Ofcourse she didn't answer to that, and completely ignored that suggestion. So yes, breeders ARE playing dumb and I would never buy a puppy from her.
 
I recently got an email from a breeder who I forgot put myself on the waiting list for another cav about 6 months before I found out about Blondies SM.
She wanted to know if i still was interested in getting a pup because I was now on top of the list.
I asked her if she scanned. She said "if i would have to scan all my dogs for SM I would be broke". She then went on about how ALL the pups she has bred in the last 8 years are still alive. She said SM is just not in her lines. She has several moms and dads that are over 6 so I said to her "broke" comment
that there is Ruperts FUnd that will fund her scans and that it would help the breed if her cavs are truly that healthy. Ofcourse she didn't answer to that, and completely ignored that suggestion. So yes, breeders ARE playing dumb and I would never buy a puppy from her.

Good job!
 
But as you seem to wish to be removed from the board, I have done so. Best of luck with Luka.[/QUOTE]


So frustrating sometimes :bang:
 
Oh Karlin you did the right thing removing that person from the board. I too feel sorry for all the pups bred by uncaring, irresponsible breeders, including my own precious Rossi, but we really do have to open our eyes and make a stand and actually do something to stop all the suffering. THE ONE AND ONLY POSITIVE THING THAT HAS COME OUT OF MY POOR ROSSI'S SUFFERING IS THE FACT THAT I AM NOW BETTER EDUCATED AND AM GOING TO BE MUCH MORE PROACTIVE IN THE FIGHT TO GET BETTER BREEDING LAWS AND TO STOP PUPPY FARMING !!
 
The irony is that dog shows came directly out of the era of eugenics that the Nazis admired -- with dogs, setting breed standards and selecting for perfect VISUAL qualities while health has been slowly compromised. Dogs no longer fit for their original purpose have been created. Selecting for healthy dogs, by contrast, selects for life. For joy.

Breeding for health as a priority is hardly eugenics. :sl*p: It's the opposite of eugenics. Some people have little understanding of history. Or logic. :rolleyes:

I also consider it an unforgiveable insult that anyone would claim the board in any way discriminates against any type of 'non-perfect' cavalier (especially when we have always had a major focus on rescue work here!).

Until this week, when Lucy passed away, I had five cavaliers. Two are rescues, one from the pound and one from a puppy farm -- hardly evidence of discrimination on behalf of perfectly bred healthy dogs as the only option. :confused:. Three have SM. Two have/had MVD. Three have early onset deafness or hearing problems; in two cases definitely not related to PSOM. Three also have PSOM. That's a lot of significant breed health problems amongst just five dogs, only one of which I originally decided to hang on to because I suspected possible SM (Lily).

Every one of those dogs deserves better health. One came from a great breeder (and was a rare SM clear dog when scanned at 9) but the endemic problems are always there and will take time to work away from (hence Lucy got dealt the hand of MVD, which is unusual to that degree in her line). Health focused breeders are moving us in the direction of better health; the evidence is already there. Our choice of where to purchase a dog therefore makes all the difference. Perhaps in the end the ONLY difference, as breeders need buyers or they won't breed; gone are the days of large kennels attached to aristocrats with lots of money, able to breed and hang on to what they bred.

Every one of you is the potential answer to this breed's problems, depending on the breeders you support. Go for a rescue if people don't want to work with a breeder.
 
:( This whole thread got my blood boiling. Being involved in rescue work for almost ten years, it really irks me when someone complains the unhealthy poorly bred pups need homes too and so we should all feel okay about purchasing from any so called breeder. What the general public doesn't understand is once the byb breeder cannot sell their pups anymore they will stop breeding. A good breeder will breed a litter first for themself and sell the other pups to good homes. Though here in the U.S. cavaliers are still fairly rare in animal rescue shelters, we do have some waiting for homes. This is a much better option than buying from a breeder that is only breeding for money, or love of having pups. A breeder that does full health testing will not be selling pups for 400-600, as I think I remember Goda as quoting her price for her pups, though Goda claimed her pups came from a reputable breeder I highly doubt that!
 
The irony is that dog shows came directly out of the era of eugenics that the Nazis admired -- with dogs, setting breed standards and selecting for perfect VISUAL qualities while health has been slowly compromised. Dogs no longer fit for their original purpose have been created.

Breeding for health as a priority is hardly eugenics. :sl*p: Some people have little understanding of history. ...

All quite true. The Nazis even had a "kennel" of human volunteers who met the appearance standards of the master race. They bred these volunteers for several years.
 
All quite true. The Nazis even had a "kennel" of human volunteers who met the appearance standards of the master race. They bred these volunteers for several years.

I remember when I was studying my first year in Dog Behaviour and Care watching a seminar on the Eugenics of Dog Showing and all about the Victorians who started it. I cant remember enough about it to start quoting stuff so thank you for bringing up that point.

Hitler I say........ honestly!
 
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