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Cesar Millan

They are dogs and think like dogs, they are not children they do not think like humans and should not be treated like humans.
...but neither should they be treated inhumanely.

Karlin has made a comment, made by several behaviourists on Dogpages ie that his methods are based on animal behaviour theories which have been shown to be falsely assumed.
 
Does anyone remember Barbara Woodhouse? An elderly British lady in the mid 1970's? I can still recall the "Woodhouse chuck" where she'd almost strangle a dog if it dared to trot ahead of her on the leash.(I'm at risk of showing my age here)
Sins
 
...but neither should they be treated inhumanely.

Karlin has made a comment, made by several behaviourists on Dogpages ie that his methods are based on animal behaviour theories which have been shown to be falsely assumed.


I dont really believe in the "pack" stuff or that dogs dont remember past experiences ( I dont believe they " forget" when they've done something bad like mess in the house either, they are not stupid )
 
I do think pack leader methods like Cesar uses can easily be misused by people who don't read a dog's signals well. However, I DO think he personally reads dogs' signals very well. He very frequently says "this is not an aggressive dog, this is a fearful dog" and comments like that. He handles them very differently than a truly aggressive dog. He frequently uses treats, praise, excitement, etc. where appropriate. I think he is very good at analyzing what the dog really needs.

So I'm not sure if the average dog owner should be trying some of these things with the average dog, because of all the reasons in Karlin's post, but I think that Cesar himself generally does things in a humane way that makes sense to problem dogs. He said he grew up observing dog behavior in packs and that's where he learned to do things like approach a frightened dog, etc. If you've never seen the episode where the rescue dog will not come out of his crate for the kind new owners who were trying their best to rehabilitate the poor little guy, then I don't think you really have a complete idea of where Cesar is coming from. He knows how to be gentle, patient, and nonthreatening. He does the more assertive things where he needs to, not indiscriminately with every dog and every problem.

I think with certain dogs, certain methods work where other methods will not. Sometimes when I see the dogs that he works with who are just biting people left and right indiscriminately, I am amazed at how patient and calm he stays. I would definitely get mad, even though I would try my best not to. I always crack up when a dog goes ballistic or bites or whatever, and Cesar says real low "this is good. This is what we want."

I know that nobody is really going to convince anybody else here who already has a strong opinion about him, but I guess I just wanted to state my opinion and try to give a more complete description of what he does. As they say, "reasonable people can differ..." I want to do my best with my dog and my family and I'm sure that's what we all want. I pick and choose what I think makes sense and works for me. I would never, ever, be intentionally cruel, hurtful, or harsh with any dog. I've loved dogs all my life and am fascinated by them. Thank God I've never had a dog who was truly aggressive or problematic like a lot of the people on that show are trying to deal with.
 
Like a number of you, I find his technique to distract a dog with the "shshsh" method not a bad approach. I've used that on our head-strong Lhasa Apso a number of times.

I watched a number of episodes of "Me or the Dog" (when I was sick a week ago). Her methods seem quite complicated sometimes to me - she has lots of facial and 'time out' techniques. I personally don't know how well some of those would work for a very headstrong dog. I still like Cesar's approach that "we" are the pack leader and need to remind ourselves of that on occasion. Last weekend, he had updated segments on some of his tough cases, and he really has seemed to make a difference in some folks' lives with their canine issues.

As for the segment regarding the sheepherding dog who chased the tractor - that was actually in my state - Nebraska. I was kind of surprised of his approach as well - but also understand that he didn't want the dog to get hit by the tractor/combine. Not sure what other approach would have worked with this dog since his natural instinct was to "chase" whatever he could find esp. on the farm.

Sheri Ramirez
 
I watched a number of episodes of "Me or the Dog" (when I was sick a week ago). Her methods seem quite complicated sometimes to me - she has lots of facial and 'time out' techniques. I personally don't know how well some of those would work for a very headstrong dog.

I watched dog borstal once were they tried to train an american bulldog , I thought a lot of their methods were confusing for the dog ( which ended up being put down)
 
I don't know enough about dog behaviour to comment on the validity of his training methods,I also expect that a lot of what he does may be designed towards making good TV.
I think he meets the current demand for Reality Tv shows where the public enjoys watching extreme out of control situations.
It's no different from Nanny 911 or supernanny where we think our kids are bad until we see theirs!!!
But he does highlight many good points.
The sheeer number of dogs destroyed in mexican pounds.
That exercising a dog is good
and that on most occasions the unstable dog behaviour is caused by their daft owners.
I watched Victoria Stillwell this morning and there was a woman who kept her pomeranian in bed, fed it pureed steamed meats and allowed the dog to bite the face off her husband when he tried to get under the covers.
AAAArgh
Sins
 
i am happy to admit i am not a expert on training, i just find even one dog being harmed/abused offensive.
 
This has been an interesting thread to me. I watch Cesar Milan occasionally *when the dogs will let me without barking their heads off! :lol:* I have mixed feelings on him. I don't agree with the scruff shakes, submissive rolling, choke chains, etc.. I think that dog training should have a more positive approach taken .. such as Ian Dunbar's method. I have clicker trained both of my dogs and they are very well behaved.. I do agree with Cesar on one thing though:

“My dad still doesn't understand why people are paying me to walk their dogs. America is a very positive country. Here, you can be whatever you want. It's awesome. A guy can cross the border 14 years ago and now have his own TV show. Only in America.”
~ Cesar Milan

The point of this quote is.. people are seriously paying him to walk their dogs, and that's what I believe most of these dogs need.
 
Sins, I too remember Babara Woodhouse in the eighties! She was around when we got our 1st dog, a very boisterous Springer. We fell for the choke chain theory, but I couldn't bear it when Troy coughed &, well, choked when we pulled him back, so we stopped using it. I do remember the "sit" command, you know, raising your hand to your chest quickly, that did work & I do a similar thing now with Maddy.
 
Hmm, have just read through all of this with interest!

Basically in most of the cases we see on Cesar Milan's show, "Me or the Dog" and also "Dog Borstal" one thing really screams out to me..

"Why did you bother to get the dog if you haven't got a clue how to handle it or train it?" :bang:

99% of the problems I see with these dogs can be directly traced back to poor handling and management when the dog was bought in as a puppy!

OK I know some of the cases are Rescue dogs and then we have the problem of not knowing their history, but the bottom line simple fact of the matter is that if a dog is handled and trained properly, sympathetically and kindly you will not have these sort of problems. A dog is a dog full stop, it is not a substitute child etc and when you start treating dogs like humans then this is when you will start having problems!!

Off my soapbox now!!
 
Jann fennel gets the same results and she doesnt roll the dog over till he is gasping or hang a dog in the air from his leash OR kick them. prong collars choke chains etc etc.

ok i don't wanna fall out with people over this but that man is nasty and abusive and nothing but a bully.

ell I think he uses some positive methods.However I was totally disgusted when he used an electric shock collar on a working sheepdog ho had an obsession with car/ tractor tyres and would chase them on the farm.

I think the use of such collars is just a form of torture and should not be used in any circumstances. They should be illegal.

I no cannot stand watching him knowing that he thinks use of such a collar is ok.

I don't have any time for Cesar Milan because I disagree with his methods, and I've dropped my subscription to National Geographic. I was surprised Cesar wasn't dropped from TV after there was a lawsuit against him.

I prefer dog trainers like Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, and Pat Miller.
 
For whatever you think of Cesar Millan, he is primarily dealing with dogs that are in danger of being surrendered to shelters or euthanized due to their unwelcome or dangerous behaviors. I'm not sure that fluffy, positive training would work well on a head strong alpha dominant breed of dog that has major agression issues. Those dogs do need more excercise, firm guidance and direction than a softer, submissive dog (such as a cavalier) would never require or tolerate. He deals with each breed and behavior problem individually. I am not a fan of choke or prong collars either, but I am not sure how else you could handle and control a fang bearing, attacking pitbull. (Not sure what these people are thinking when they pick these breeds and expect a happy lap dog.) :confused:

I agree that the primary blame goes to the people who bring home cute puppies or shelter dogs on impulse with no idea of what that breed was originally trained to do. Most of these dogs are genetically pre-dispositioned to have a job, such as herding sheep or cattle, guarding, birding/hunting...etc. Once home, they often become destructive or dangerous from boredom and lack of discipline or a proper "job" to do. Hence, the primary blame is on the owners, not the dog. Cesar does point out that he is mainly there to train the people what to do.

I doubt we will ever see an attack Cavalier on his show...although he did feature a cute blenheim in one of the episodes to provide a "calm, submissive" example to another crazy out of control dog. ;)
 
I find his show interesting. I don't agree with many of the things that he does but then again he's dealing with dogs that have never been trained. I do agree that dogs do much better with a schedule and exercise. I really like Victoria from It's me or the dog. She very positive and I like that.
 
Well he is charismatic and I guess he is educating some people who maybe otherwise would not have a clue....

BUT - no I do not like his methods. They seem antiquated to me. Actually as part of the code of practice at my local dog club, we would be kicked out of the club for using some of his techniques.
 
I've talked to a lot of trainers on approaches to training and the ways dogs live now.

Training techniques -- uses of chokes chains and basing approaches to training on notions that dogs are trying to prove their 'dominance' -- only go back to around post WWII. Dogs were not trained like this before then (but back to that in a moment). Dogs also didn't get or perhaps need a lot of formal training because they had regular, often constant, human companionship during the day. One adult was generally home all day, and kids didn't sit inside watching a box, be it a PC or a computer. They went outside -- with the dog. Most family vacations, the dog went with people, because people didn't flyaway and spend two weeks abroad -- the dog went along.

A dog's life now tends to consist of spending many hours alone -- often most of its life is spent asleep at night then home alone all day, and home alone again when people head off to do things on the weekend. Kids might play briefly or sit with the dog inside, but kids are not outside for several hours every afternoon and evening, with the dog,as would have been the case even when I was a child. Kids don't even walk dogs anymore because parents are paranoid about having the kids go anywhere alone. When I was younger it was mostly the kids who walked family dogs, or the dog was walked as a family. We kids took the dog to the local parks too. Now, again, the dog mostly sits inside.

Bascially our lives have changed significantly and don't suit dog ownership. That doesn;t mean you shouldn't have a dog, but it DOES mean people need to make the commitment to this living animal which *isn't* just a decoration for the house. We all need to set aside the time to give the dog the life it needs to remain mentally stimulated and fit. Whether that means hiring someone else to walk the dog or for people to reshape their day and evenings and weekends is up to the owner, but doggie daycare while good for keeping the dog in company is not a form of exercise either.

On this point I totally agree with Cesar Millan -- people get dogs then do not give them the physical or mental challenges they need to stay fit and mentally healthy. A lot of us give the dog a life that is the equivalent of plopping a child in front of the TV all day long because it is easier for us. They need an hour of activity. They need interaction that is more than popping treats in their mouths.

The fact that they don't get that level of active interaction with us on a daily basis, and have lots of pent up energy and are understimulated, leads directly to training and behaviour problems. A bored, underexercised, understimulated dog is a dog that barks, digs, chews, whines, fights, roams, has housetraining problems, gets too fat, picks up quirks we don't like, etc etc.

On training methods and going back to what has happened post WWII: I think there's a reason certain breeds of dogs are now becoming more problematical (and I DO believe there are breed-related issues, I am not one of those who thinks it is 'only' the dog and not the breed -- I know from experience how hard it is to NOT have a cavalier that is generally friendly and sweet tempered and a velcro dog. Many of us know collies that nip heels and try to herd despite never having been trained to do do, and terriers that are good ratters by instinct. If the dog instead has 500 years of fighting breeding in it, then it is hard to breed out dog aggression...BUT -- and this is a BIG but -- well socialised former fighting breeds don't have the tendency to fight.).

The thing is, many of the breeds we now read about in the news all the time were always popular pet dogs in previous decades. Then we started to get these breeds and not give them mu ch time nor get them out and socialised with dogs and people as would once have been the norm. AND: the dominance/man-handling began -- training methods which the above articles would indicate work dangerously to provoke the dog and humiliate the dog in such a way that it obeys through fear... but may then lash out at others. So many trainers I know have to deal with dogs that are now fear aggressive due to people having trained using dominance (Millan style) methods.

Pit bulls and other bull breeds for example were one of the number one family dogs in the late 19h and first half of the 20th century, because they were gentle and affectionate with children. You see them in pictures all the time -- a pit bull is the dog in Little Rascals too. If the breed had had bad associations it would not have held this strong position as a family dog. German shepherds were another extremely popular family dog.

Now we seem to have some strange need to bully the dog rather than reward as a training method, using these TV methods. If you've ever been bullied you know the frustration and anxiety builds and builds. You see the same in dogs. Maybe trying to boss and bully the dog and exert physical control over an animal suits a Me Generation mindset that wants immediate gratification ('I have a right to own a dog') and fast results ('I don't want to put any time into training based on a close bond and motivated response, when jerking a dog on a choke chain works faster').

So: people get dogs for the wrong reasons and keep them in inappropriate, unstimulating environments. This creates a dog with behaviour problems which training methods based on fear and punishment can quickly suppress at least in response to the trainer. But to me, that's not training, and isn't any real life for a dog. I am old enough to have watched dogs trained decades back with these old methods, and with positive methods now -- and there's a world of difference. It depresses me to see TV trainers once again bring credibility to a rather sad way of training that does damage a lot of dogs and definitely incites higher levels of aggression in some.
 
...but neither should they be treated inhumanely.

I worked for the RSPCA and am a veterinary nurse... think before you accuse people of treating animals inhumanely.. i would not agree with any training method that did that and Cesar Millan does not use these methods..

So goodbye and thanks to this forum for nothing. Its like a bunch of squabbling girls in the school playground !!!!
 
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