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UK MRI Testing - is this still recommended??

Sarah01

Member
Hi,

We’re in the process of speaking to breeders about their cavalier puppies. We set out that the puppy we got (and parents of) would have ALL possible health tests to reduce their chances of health problems, however, MRI scans seem to be less common with breeders due to the mixed results and dogs apparently still able to get syringomyelia even with clear parents test results.

We are now a bit stuck as to whether to only speak to breeders who still MRI test (this would reduce the amount down massively as even some of the best breeders don’t do this any more) or whether it’s acceptable to consider a puppy whose parents haven’t been MRI tested for syringomyelia

Thoughts please! Especially if you’re UK based
 
Hi and welcome. You are absolutely on the right track in looking for breeders who test and are open and honest about results and their breeding programme and I always am delighted to find puppy seekers who value this, as they are the ones who will help ensure the breed has a viable, healthier future. Those of us who have campaigned for cavalier health for many years, and talked to and supported the key CM/SM (and other health issue) researchers, would all say that MRI testing is an absolute must. If anything, it's needed now more than ever and recent published papers have once again indicated that puppies from tested parents with good MRI results are considerably less likely to have SM or symptomatic SM, whereas puppies from unscanned parents have a high chance of being affected. Sadly, many cavalier breeders still claim that testing doesn't show improvements but this simply is not supported by the evidence in several studies. While it is true that puppies from parents with good test results can still develop SM, and pretty much all will have CM, the chances are far lower, and such an argument is like saying there's no point in hip scoring for hip dysplasia, or doing eye tests or testing hearts because some dogs will still be affected. I've always said, it's sure funny how insistent breeders are about carefully choosing dogs that will produce, say, the headshape or bone structure or movement they desire in a show dog, they don't randomly breed any pair of cavaliers because genetics is a 'crap shoot' (a favourite phrase used by those who don't wish to test). This is patently untrue, and genetics isn't a 'crap shoot', as Mendel proved with his experiments centuries ago. Even with a condition with complex inheritance such as mitral valve disease or CM/SM, studies show that proper testing and using breeding guidelines reduces incidence and severity.

I think any breeder who was MRI testing and doesn't any more for any reason, was never in the category of 'best breeder' and is now not even bothering to hide the fact. I know they may have well known show names or even be involved in the national or local breed club, but a study of puppy registrations in the UK club has shown that even people who are on the club committees have bred puppies from dogs far younger than is recommended (because heart and MRI tests have little meaning in most young dogs, who will test clear). Some dogs used were only a year old :(.

Cavalier Matters has a very good guide for finding a breeder and what tests to expect a good breeder to be doing, with a UK focus:


From talking with people around the breed, I have the sense now that the UK Club has grown increasingly isolated internationally due to the attitudes of many club breeders towards health testing. It's frustrating because they could be leaders in working towards the breed's future. It can be more challenging to find a good, testing breeder, but they are there. And yes: unfortunately, that does as you say, massively reduce the number of breeders for consideration. That says a lot about where the UK is right now. Health testing including MRIs for CM/SM is far more widespread in other clubs such as in most of Scandinavia and the Netherlands and in some cases, is a legal requirement (in the Netherlands since 2011). The Irish club has become very health focused in recent years, too. When some UK breeders state that MRIing makes no difference this is likely because even when they did MRI, they didn't follow recommended breeding advice from researchers and thus, those breeders saw no change.

Here's a FAQ for breeders produced by the leading researcher on CM/SM, Dr Clare Rusbridge, which explains why MRI testing remains important: https://veterinary-neurologist.co.u...-during-talks-and-symposia-and-online-forums/

She notes (about one early study on using breeding guidelines):

The outcome of using these guidelines was reported here. It was found that offspring without SM were more common when the parents were both clear of SM (SM-free; Cavalier King Charles spaniels (CKCS) 70%, Griffon Bruxellois (GB) 73%). Conversely, offspring with SM were more likely when both parents had SM (SM-affected; CKCS 92%, GB 100 %). A mating of one SM-free parent with an SM-affected parent was risky for SM affectedness with 77 % of CKCS and 46 % of GB offspring being SM-affected. The breeding guidelines became more restricted (here) because it became impossible to recommend a breeding when there was a greater of 1 in 2 chance of offspring being affected. Meanwhile it was hoped that breeders would comprehensively screen to create an estimated breeding value scheme which would be more accurate and allow greater retention of genetic material. Unfortunately the number of breeders MRI screening their breeding dogs diminished and the disease remains prevalent.

The most recent study found:

our study demonstrates that if breeders use only unaffected older CKCS, the risk of getting affected offspring clearly decreases. Over time, the prevalence of SM dropped from 38% (period 2010–2014) to 27% (period 2015–2019). It is commendable to see this decrease in SM, but the effect is less than expected as in the second period, the number of younger CKCS used has increased significantly. The result could have been better if other choices had been made.

In other words, because breeders started using younger dogs for breeding, they increased the chances of affected offspring. Breeding dogs should be at least 2.5 years old and re-MRI'd ideally as they get older. However, Dr Rusbridge has pointed out that there's no longer enough genetic diversity in cavaliers to use only unaffected dogs, especially when there are so many additional health issues. That raises other issues of course!
 
Also: if you send me a message (the little envelope at the top right of the site near your login name) I can suggest someone to contact who might have a suggestion for you to contact for some recommended breeders. I don't know who is testing these days in the UK, but I know some people who would.
 
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Thank you I’ve sent you a message

And This info is really helpful and interesting
It’s a shame that it seems to be so very very rare that they’re done by breeders here now

A few breeders I’ve spoken to have said that even amongst vets the “jury is out” when it comes to this testing, some view it as not very nice testing for the dogs, others view the results as inconclusive

It’s all a bit of a minefield!
 
A few breeders I’ve spoken to have said that even amongst vets the “jury is out” when it comes to this testing, some view it as not very nice testing for the dogs, others view the results as inconclusive
The jury truly is not out. The main problem now is that so few embraced proper testing two decades ago when there was still a good chance of addressing the issue and more genetic diversity. Now, diversity is so narrow that some Scandinavian clubs are working on or considering outcross programmes. The Swedish programme is underway, here is info in English on what they're doing: https://www.cavaliersallskapet.net/...SKK-BeslutOmInkorsningsprojektet-20230616.pdf.

An MRI requires a general anaesthetic or sedation but the actual scans are very brief. Most pet owners would have their cavaliers in for GAs several times in a lifetime, for scans, dentals, spay/neuter, etc. I've had three of my cavaliers MRId just for researchers, two of them done twice, as young dogs and again at around age 6. One was scanned at 9. The number of excuses some breeders come up with is truly depressing and the knock on effect is their disinterest and avoidance of addressing health issues means it's pet owners who end up spending thousands on diagnostics and medications or surgery for affected dogs. :( Thankfully the key meds have dropped enormously in cost now that generics are available. And the results aren't inconclusive except in the sense that if they get a clear scan, or a very small syrinx, they won't know if/how it develops unless they scan again at say 5 or 7...

On the positive side, in the past two decades several of the cavalier health issues have been genetically identified and can be tested for and bred away from as they are traits that have simple inheritance. These are really simple tests only requiring a cheek swab and yet STILL most breeders don't do them.
 
That’s super interesting! Thank you so much for all the info and for your help, it’s really appreciated

Here we are wishing we could be in another country to get one 😂 it seems a lot easier!

But we will proceed to try our best to find the healthiest pup here from good breeders
 
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Also: if you send me a message (the little envelope at the top right of the site near your login name) I can suggest someone to contact who might have a suggestion for you to contact for some recommended breeders. I don't know who is testing these days in the UK, but I know some people who would.
Hello, I’m in the same situation re looking for a breeder that does all the health tests includ CM/SM and would really appreciate it if you could send me some info about breeders that test.
 
Thank you I’ve sent you a message

And This info is really helpful and interesting
It’s a shame that it seems to be so very very rare that they’re done by breeders here now

A few breeders I’ve spoken to have said that even amongst vets the “jury is out” when it comes to this testing, some view it as not very nice testing for the dogs, others view the results as inconclusive

It’s all a bit of a minefield!
Hello, I’m in the same boat as you! Have you got any info re breeders that test and follow the heart protocol and scan for CM/SM? I am becoming thoroughly dis-heartened trying to find a breeder that does at least SOME of the tests . kind regards clodagh T uk based
 
I'm also trying to find breeders who MRI first if anyone knows any.
It seems very difficult to find them.
 
Hi, sorry to jump in on this but I am also finding it very difficult to find breeders who carry out MRI scanning. Can anyone message me to recommend anyone who can help with my search? I’d really appreciate any help.
 
Hi, sorry to jump in on this but I am also finding it very difficult to find breeders who carry out MRI scanning. Can anyone message me to recommend anyone who can help with my search? I’d really appreciate any help.
Hi
Just to update on what I found.
I had good advice from the great admin on here on suggesting who to contact.
Sadly though most people I contacted didn't get back to me when I tried to get in touch and those who did weren't able to help.
I honestly don't know what to suggest, in the end we ended up adopting a Cavalier puppy from an older couple who were struggling with a puppy.
I hope you manage to have more success , it would be great if it became more widely done but sadly at this point it doesn't seem that this is going to happen.
People kept trying to argue with me that just because parents have been MRI scanned there's no guarantee, well I totally agree there is no guarantee but it does reduce the likelihood of future problems, even if it only reduces it to some extend then from my experience of having Cavaliers MRI scanned (just me pet Cavaliers) they aren't particularly invasive or distressing to the pet so why would everyone not agree it's a good thing to be done before breeding?
The longer I'm a Cavalier owner (15 years) the more the breeding community baffles me tbh.
 
Thanks so much for your reply. It’s such a shame. I’m getting similar responses from breeders; that they don’t deem SM an issue, or that the testing doesn’t guarantee anything, that their dogs have never shown symptoms, they aren’t prepared to put their dogs through the testing, they look at family histories instead, that you just can’t test for everything and even that the kennel club have admitted it’s a waste of time! It’s so confusing and I just don’t know what to think anymore :(
 
Thanks so much for your reply. It’s such a shame. I’m getting similar responses from breeders; that they don’t deem SM an issue, or that the testing doesn’t guarantee anything, that their dogs have never shown symptoms, they aren’t prepared to put their dogs through the testing, they look at family histories instead, that you just can’t test for everything and even that the kennel club have admitted it’s a waste of time! It’s so confusing and I just don’t know what to think anymore :(
Go back through the archives and this is exactly what they were saying 20 years ago too. It is, frankly, infuriating and says a lot about the Lack of commitment of breeders to the breed rather than to their own personal show glory or puppy income. Two decades on, there's plenty of research based on thousands of scans that shows a significantly lower risk of SM and especially, severe SM, when parents have been scanned at age 2.5+ and breeders follow the recommendations from Dr Clare Rusbridge and others. But they still argue it's a 'crap shoot' even though they'll pay thousands for a mating with a show-winning stud dog in order to do the much greater 'crap shoot' of hoping the offspring will inherit some of the dog's winning aspects. Basically: far too many breeders simply lie.

They are just as two-faced about hearts. The UK CKCS Club's own club cardiologist was lacerating when he retired, noting that if the testing and breeding protocols had been followed by club breeders, there would have been significant falls in serious heart disease. But a couple of cavalier lovers showed by examining the KC puppy register that leading club breeders repeatedly bred dogs well under the recommended breeding age and often without basic and inexpensive heart tests that are subsidised by the clubs!

I know from talking to ethical breeders that they find other club show breeders will lie to them about whether tests have been done and then don't respond when asked to produce the results certificates. (So also beware the breeder who says s/he tests or 'doesn't have it in my lines [impossible for heart and SM risk] or the dogs have been 'tested' when this often means their vet looked at the dog, or the only test results are easy ones like patellas or eyes.) So yes, it does remain a minefield to find a good breeder.

It is a depressing situation and rescue dogs are always an option, when they can be found. Also there are some good breeders out there. My current pup comes from a breeder who chose an older sire and an older dam with MRIs and many other good test results behind them, knowing that older dogs that are still testing well/still asymptomatic are FAR more likely to produce offspring with good hearts/lower risk of SM. However she will not be having another litter for another 2-3 years til one or two of her other girls is old enough and has the requisite good test results.

If people are persistent and keep asking for testing breeders then clubs and breeders will feel buyer pressure. It is an important step in support of the breed that anyone can take. NB there are major new welfare rules coming inn from the EU regarding breeding dogs and the feeling is, these will only become more stringent. Norway bans the breeding of cavaliers now, because breeders couldn't demonstrate to their highest court that they were testing and breeding to help reduce genetic disease. EU rules won;t directly impact the UK or US of course but they will indirectly because dogs won;t be able to be bred or sold outside their own regions increasing genetic bottlenecks and isolating the clubs. The Irish Kennel Club is actually leading the UK on some health initiatives now.

Sorry for the long post, I'll step back now but all I can say is, you all are not alone in your frustration. And there has been steady pushback from cavalier lovers too.
 
By the way the Kennel Club has not AT ALL said it's a 'waste of time' -- this is breeders lying yet again, and even then, blaming the KC is laughable anyway, they are hardly the shining light of ethical and responsible breeding. The KC has just been weak on breed health generally for years (with some recent isolated improvements). BUT even the KC can see the writing on the wall. But there has been mediocre commitment to what was to have been a centrepiece health/scanning scheme. A lot of decent breeders have been very frustrated.
 
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