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What about tests etc.

ckcsmomnj

Member
Bruce,

Thanks for taking the time to work on a journal. I for one will enjoy reading your story. I hope this question has not already been addressed, if so I apologize. Did you review all the testing and clearances Anna, Star, Cooper and the stud had completed, including who was MRI'd ? Also, do you have a plan to MRI the pups when old enough so you can collect data regarding MRI'd pairings results? This information will be very valuable to the researchers and other breeders. I am sure it will not be long before a data base is started so all breeders interested in the future of the Cavalier can participate in eradicating SM. I have the utmost respect and appreciation to all the breeders who are taking on the personal expense both emotionally and financially to do everything they can to minimize the risk of bringing a pup into the world with SM. I look forward to the rest of your story.

Kathleen
 
I was discussing MRIing puppies w/ my husband this weekend. I'm looking at other breeds for the future because I can't have another dog w/ SM. It's just too hard. And he was wondering how early you can MRI a puppy to tell if they're clear. I know Dr. Dewey was talking about doing research on this. Has anything developed from that??
 
MRI's

Rory,

I understand Dr. Dewey would like to determine how young you can DX a clear dog. I do not know how many pups he has been able to enroll or if this research will be something he conducts once at Cornell. The last time I spoke with him no one had taken advantage of his very low cost MRI for pups 12 months and under. It surprises me that breeders do not want to participate in this all important research. They can find out if their males have the malformation early and follow up to see if SM developes. They could save money on both the MRI and costs involved with pursuing a championship. If the dog is not clear they would not have wasted their money showing. If their dog is clear at 2 yrs then they could start showing. It seems like a win win proposition to me.

I just watched Clare Rusbridge's Canadian seminar and she stated that there is work being done with ultrasound also. This is all so new and all the data must be collected so universal parameters can be determined. I know some breeders who are presently breeding clear pairs and using clear dogs per the SM protocol. It won't be long before we see the results of such pairings. I don't know when you were thinking about getting another dog but you may want to wait a year. We will know more at that time and you may be able to stay with the best breed, the Cavalier ! !

Kathleen
 
Sorry it took so long to respond. We wanted to be sure our response on the SM portion was as correct as we understand it because SM is such a controvesial subject with both dog owners and breeders. And actually, the response is primarily from my wife because she knows so much more than I about SM. In response to reviewing the health clearance:

We test all of our dogs yearly for heart problems with the cardiologist from the University of Minnesota and will not breed anyone whose heart is not cleared by that specialist; nor will we breed our girls to a stud that is not heart cleared. The certificates are done yearly and are kept current. Even the old grandma Penney at nearly eight still has a clear heart and is chasing squirrels like she was a two year old. Her daughter Kate has a clear heart and so did Kates father at five years old. Kate is nearing her last litter and is heart clear along with her daughter Dottie. The cardiologist was amazed at how sound all three generations were at our last visit in August of this year. His statement was that it is not often you hear such strong steady hearts in three generations like this. Anna is heart clear at three. Her mother is heart cleared at six and her father developed a grade one at five and still has that same grade one at almost seven. Annas daughter Pixey has a clear heart as well. All cleared again by a cardiologist. Star heart cleared just like the others and share the same father as Kate does whose heart was clear at five. Cooper at two has a clear heart as does both his mother and father at age five. All cleared by cardiologist. Dillon the sire on another litter cleared by cardiologist as well as his father, his mother and both grandparents on both sides.

Let’s get to the MRI thing.

First let me say that there are no physical signs of any SM. There are squeeks out of everyone when toes are squeezed and no signs of scoliosis. Everyone scratches their ears just as much as I do. There is no sign of being uncomfortable at all along the spine, head or neck.

After reviewing and discussing the video on syringomyelia that is the seminar presented by Clare Rusbridge at the ACKCSC nationals we have decide to wait to MRI anyone. At this point they do not have a definition of the term clear on the MRI for the syringomyelia. I know that this sounds contradictory to what is on the chat lines on the internet but until we have a definition of clear and this IS explained in her video there is no point in sedating the dog for a test without clear results. The only time at this point I would have a dog MRId is if they were showing some symptoms and I had considered breeding them. Doing so at this point is a waste of money for us who have asymptomatic dogs whose parents are also asymptomatic and whose lines are long lived with no heart problems for as far back as we can go. Also according to the protocol laided out by Clare Rusbridge the recommendation is to breed dogs over the age of 2.5 years because most dogs will have presented symptoms before age three and as you can tell my dogs are over three without symptoms. The other recommendation is to breed asymptomatic dogs over 2.5 if they are valuable in another genetic sense such as a good heart. I might add here that most dogs with SM do not live to be really old. All the relatives of the dogs I use for breeding whether my own or an outside stud are also from long lived relatives.

According to the information on the Rusbridge tape and printed insert a dog is not considered clearable enough until age 2.5 with a fuzzy definition of the term clear and a statement saying “dogs may develop signs of syringomyelia at any age e.g. a dog can be free of pain until 7 years old i.e. .a dogs status may change as it gets older.

My point is if the results are fuzzy and the status can change at any time how can you have a cleared dog after spending $2000 on the MRI? Wouldn’t it be better served to the breed to breed what is asymptomatic from long lived lines that do not appear to have symptoms of this disease in old age and who have a history of healthy hearts with great temperaments and great eyes and good hips and patella’s? At this point I think I will wait until the verdict is in as to what is clear and what dna markers we need before risking putting my dogs under anesthesia yearly for a test that is not definitive and is subjective not to mention the results can change so how long would the MRI be good for? A year? $2000 a year per dog to clear based on fuzzy definitions is not where I will spend my money.

Would I need to subsidize the pet buyer? I think a cavalier might then be in the range of at least $6000 plus and over the age of three before selling it.

I understand your issues with this awful disease but it doesn’t mean that another cavalier will have those same issues. You just plain got unlucky this time. Before you write off this breed keep in mind EVERY breed has issues with health. The best you can do is narrow your odds by education and not throwing out the baby with the bath water. Oh and you will find those that will MRI but will they do it again next year and the year after that? They will disagree with what we are doing but after studying and careful consideration most breeders will agree if this breed is to continue you can not eliminate 50% to 70% of the dogs and hope to have any kind of program to move forward with.

Getting on my flame-proof suit now.
 
Hi Bruce,

I may need to join you with my flame/bullet-proof suit here... but here goes...

I just wanted to let you know, Bruce, that your post was beautifully written... I completely agree with everything you said. I know that people without direct breeding experience will probably jump on you, but I just wanted to let you know that your post explained things as best we know at this point.

As you well know, what people often don't understand is that a dog can be MRI clear, but still show symptoms; a dog can have the occipital hyperplasia, herniated cerebellum and syrinxes on MRI, but show no symtoms; a dog can have two "asymptomatic" parents, and still end up with SM. This horrible disease is complex and polygenic, and we just don't know enough about it yet... I agree that if the parents are showing symptoms (or are obviously MRI'd with the occipital malformation), then they should definitely NOT be bred. But, if you have dogs that are not symptomatic at age 2.5-3, are heart healthy, and come from a line of healthy, long-lived dogs with no SM symptoms... what a waste and disservice to this incredible breed to NOT breed them!

If people forced reputable breeders to MRI-clear ALL of their dogs, not only is this completely cost-prohibitive, but this does not guarantee a SM-free dog! (Overly simplistic example: if both parents are "carriers" of an SM gene, they will be MRI-clear, and if the offspring acquires both genes from their parents, they will have SM!). So, until we know more, "MRI-clear" doesn't really mean all that much, to be honest. Also, keep in mind that requiring MRI's does absolutely nothing to slow the production of cavaliers from unscrupulous breeders, puppy mills and such. All this will do is deter many of the "good" breeders, and create an influx of unhealthy dogs - thusly limiting the gene pool of otherwise healthy dogs so much that other greater health problems will result.

SM is a horrible and heartbreaking disease process. But, we need to try to take a deep breath, think rationally and not let our emotions get ahold of us (difficult, I know!). We are all worried about the future of this wonderful breed, but remember that the future of this breed lies with those breeding them as responsibly as we can, based on the current knowledge that we have to work with.
 
Bruce,

Thank you for your candid and honest answer to a very difficult question. We just brought home a new puppy, but we went through a lot of research, discussions with breeders and thinking in deciding what to do in regards to the SM problem. We went from, get a different breed ~ can't do that Cavaliers are the PERFECT dog for us~ to wait a few years and see what comes of all the research ~ can't do that, the house is WAY too empty without a Cavalier filling it with love & joy ~ to we are going to choose a breeder that is doing all that is possible in their breeding program. We made an educated decision that is right for us and we have a darling puppy who I hope has a long and healthy life. We found the breeders we talked to be very honest and concerned when it comes to SM, which will be very important in finding out more and eventually eliminating this awful disorder. My heart goes out to all who are dealing with this, I can only imagine how difficult it must be. I hope a solution is found soon!
 
Bruce,

Thanks for your reply. I won't be throwing any flames your way so you won't need your flame-proof suit. I posed the questions about tests and MRI's so everyone gets a full picture of what breeding entailes. There is a lot of work that goes on before the actual breeding, whelping and raising of the pups. I thought it would be a good idea to cover that along with the exhausting but rewarding months you are patiently waiting to begin. I didn't ask about showing your breeding stock to demonstrate that they meet the breed standard, maybe you would like to touch on that also.

Yours is an impressive lineage of healthy hearts which should not be thrown out with the bath water. Maybe you might want to share how you came upon the lines you use now, the research, trial and error involved to get where you are today. You may save others from making some of your mistakes leaving them to come up with their own ( which I am sure they will).

We all come from different points of reference and interpret things differently. I think it is very important to keep the lines of communication open. If there is not an open forum, then concerns cannot be addressed and solutions cannot be found. I believe that is where we are concerning MRI'ing or not. It will be years before the genes responsible for SM are isolated. In the meantime, breeding of the cavalier continues. No one holds the crystal ball. All we can do is throw out ideas based on the latest findings and move forward. Two steps forward, one step back! My interpretation of the findings is that we can tell if a dog has SM by MRI. We can make that determination clearly. Others I have spoken to, including a neurologist, feel that a pup of at least 12 months who does not have the malformation will not go on to develop one. So here we have two results of MRI'ing that will not change and can be used for breeding: finding SM or finding no malformation. A 2.5 yr old dog with no malformation or syrinx can safely be rated an A*, a clear dog. Any age dog with the malformation and syrinx has SM. With this information and the present SM protocol we can make informed breeding decisions.

What I think would be a wonderful advancement in the research would be if all the cavalier breeders at least MRI'd one dog, bred following the protocol and followed up on that one litter. From this we would have data that could contribute to the geneticists' research. This raises the problem of the cost. Some breeders will shoulder the burden of the cost because they strongly believe this is what needs to be done or this is within their financial means. For others, this is just not financially possible. I believe if the funds were raised to hold low cost clinics, more breeders would be willing to participate in collecting such data. The other problem is that all this would need to be coordinated. As you can see, I do not have all the answers, but I do hold a position on what I believe needs to be done at this time. We should share our views because this can only result in advancements.

I do hope we can find a way to lower the cost of screening dogs for SM. In the meantime, I hope you reconsider your position on MRI'ing because, as I stated previously, it can tell you definitively if your dogs have SM. Start with just one dog and follow up with the pups. This conversation is not meant to be divisive, quite the contrary. If we put up our defenses, sharing of ideas and concerns will stop and we will accomplish nothing. Isn't that why you are sharing your breeding experience? You may help others and learn something yourself along the way.

I look forward to following your journal over the coming months. You did this in the spirit of sharing and teaching. Thanks Bruce.

Kathleen
 
Thanks for the reply. I'm just leaving for a long weekend out of town, back it town Tuesday. Will try to respond after that.
 
This is my perspective on this. I think there's still a gap in communication on the uses of MRIing and the notion of 'clear' dogs and what the 2.5 age indication means on the breeding protocol. And the extreme urgency of the SM problem right now. This gap really needs to be directly addressed and clarified by the researchers I think as it has become (or been allowed to become) a centrepiece of misunderstanding.

First, the 2.5 age is ONLY there, as Dr Rusbridge states on the protocol, because it matches the heart protocol (so dogs shouldn't be bred before then *anyway*) but also allows for a good period of time in which to look for symptoms. In general dogs that show symptoms before age 3 are going to have more severe forms of SM. But in most cases, severe forms are *almost always related* to severity of malformation/herniation so to say that dogs needn't be MRId because symptoms can show up any time is to ignore the fact that 1) symptoms are often subtle anyway that breeders and pet owners miss them entirely (not to mention vets); AND 2) that the key issue for the vast majority of dogs especially in terms of passing this along to offspring is NOT symptoms but the severity of the SM/malformation/herniation. I do not know a single researcher or neurologist who disagrees with this point. Indeed I believe that shortly a statement will be issued from a range of the neurologists warning as to the urgent need to MRI and follow the breeding protocol. They are very concerned now for the future of the breed and the lack of take-up of MRI schemes (I know Dr Dewey has become increasingly worried that this indicates there's no interest from breeders to address the problem and follow the breeding protocol and that he has been very disheartened that almost no breeders have taken up his low cost MRI scheme. I expect other neurologists are about to become far more vocal about the issue and that, at last, it will stop being seen by so many, very mistakenly, as somehow the quirky view of one UK neurologist).

Also, the protocol does NOT give an all clear for breeding to a dog that has say, a severe malformation and severe herniation but no symptoms -- there are levels of acceptability and the assumption is , as with MVD, people weigh up the implications of a diagnosis (eg a low-murmur dog at age 8 is a better choice of ancestor than a high murmur dog hence the value of tracking status over generations). I know from talking directly to both Dr Rusbridge and Penny Knowler, as well as from communications with other leading neurologists in this area, that what is very important is not to breed a dog with severe features regardless of its symptom free state unless there are compelling reasons to do so. All indications at this point are that this does get progressively worse in the breed and the likelihood is that, while the given stud or bitch may be asymptomatic, its offspring stand a good chance of getting a combination of the severe malformation and the other elements that will cause symptoms, and then passing these more severe combinations genetically on to the next generation.

In addition I know from general correspondence with a number of researchers (without knowing the actual breeders/lines involved because the researchers across the board are totally protective of identities and observing confidentiality), that these researchers have been truly shocked that dogs and lines that they KNOW from research work to have severe SM remain in very active breeding programmes around the world. These are dogs that were breeder-submitted for the research programmes or whose direct offspring have been diagnosed with very severe SM and breeders know the status of the dog. The fact that not only are people finding reasons not to MRI but actually keeping known, affected dogs (some very symptomatic I am told!) in leading breeding programmes where they are producing hundreds of puppies has deeply shocked many of the geneticists and neurologists involved with the research on this breed.

Hence I do think there is going to be a direct appeal on the extreme urgency of the situation from a united front of senior neurologists to the breed clubs internationally on this issue. The scientists are at this point calling the situation as they see it: they do not have investments in dogs, lines, shows, or stud fees nor are they involved in the breed club politics and no vested interest to argue that dogs should be scanned. They just see a breed that is getting to the end of its genetic tether and they do not understand why people do not want to save the breed, particularly when this is such a horrifically painful condition for an affected dog to live with (as human sufferers can confirm, and have, on some of the SM dog lists).

With what authority can I speak to such things? I have been in contact with many of those on the research side in recent months because I am researching a piece on this for one of the major international science publications, mainly because the genetic angle is so interesting -- the genome scan and possibility of identifying polygenetic markers for a condition that requires numerous genes to combine in certain ways to produce it) is out at the cutting edge of genetic research and has HUGE implications for human illness so the human medical world is very interested in this work, as are geneticists generally.

It would be sad to see this breed disappear entirely because the breed clubs have failed to inform breeders of how serious the issue is. The leadership needs to come from the breed clubs, as it is hard for individual breeders to take decisions where they are then ostracised (as is definitely happening; I get a lot of pprivate email to this effect) and wade through the existing research to try and understand what is really going on. A key reason I had for setting up the SM Infosite -- www.sm.cavaliertalk.com -- was to get neutral info on research and the latest thinking out to anyone interested as there was so much rumour and misunderstanding about the growing body of research and evidence.

Perhaps people will become more persuaded when the Ohio research is written up, and Dr Dewey's two upcoming papers are published, and a new piece of work from Dr Rusbridge, which is going into one of the leading international vet journals -- but I fear how far this will continue to have progressed given that publication timetables mean this could be a year or two from now. We can already see the shift in visibility -- and one assumes, the increasing severity in the cases -- of SM that have emerged in just the past year or two so imagine the effect of two more years of no action... :(

I am in the process of preparing an interview with the leading geneticist on his SM work and perspective for the Infosite and will let people know when that is to appear. I think it is really important that people begin to see how general the view is that this an enormous and urgent problem for breeders. He, btw, was of the view that the condition was SO urgent a year ago that breeders should not be breeeding ANY dogs except totally clear to totally clear. Dr Rusbridge realised that was not possible with the narrow breed gene pool and the MVD problems so took that into consideration with the more flexible protocol.

As an afterthought: Mr Skerritt believes a dog can be diagnosed at 6 months as in his experience the malformation is visible at that point. Other neurologists feel about age 1 is a good baseline point to watch for progression. But certainly observing the state of the malformation and herniation at that point is enough to base future breeding decisions on. From then on, a diagnosed dog can be watched for symptoms rather than re-MRI'd. Hopefully within a couple of years there will be some genetic tests which help refine understanding of which dogs are best to breed. And as noted there's some possibility of using ultrasound (however this does not reveal too much at this point but an experienced neurologist could do a basic diagnosis using it) and the hope that newer MRI techniques such aas the one that also measures the flow of the cerbrospinal fluid will help predict which dogs are likely to go on and have severe symptoms.

Apologies for the length of the post but there were several points to address there. In general I think the issue lies with the breed clubs and health clubs and the way in which they champion this, not individual breeders who must be finding the situation even more confusing than it actually is because there is just no leadership on nthis problem at all and no attempt to give supportive guidance. Eeven the info on SM on the club websites is mostly months out of date and I don't know any that have posted the revisde breeding protocols, with most never posting the initial protocol.

Meanwhile most dogs continue to be misdiagnosed with allergies or disk problems and scratching at shoulders and neck is dismissed as dislike of a style of collar or harness or skin allergies or mites. Or people think because the dog doesn't scratch it can't have SM even though Dr Dewey sees the scratching in only about 40% of cases. So I really strongly believe many who are guessing their dogs have no symptoms actually have symptomatic dogs and just guessing at status based on symptoms is meaningless.
 
I'm back! Wow is this going to be a tough post.

Karlin and everyone else is very correct in that SM is a terrible problem, a lot more research needs to be done, and breeders have to re-think what they are presently doing. I, as a breeder, have to be very concerned about this and need to do the right thing. So I need some help from you people out there who are my potential "customers". I need to have you look at this from my side of the coin and help me with a solution to my problem.

I need help in figuring out how I (or any other breeder for that matter) can afford to meet the breeding protocol. The $2,000 cost of the MRI is the cheap part. To start with, if I need a clear male, then statistically, I have to buy at least 4 males to get one clear male (1 out of 3.33 dogs are clear). So I start out with a $16,000 investment (give or take) to get one clear male. Then there's the cost of raising those 4 dogs for 2 1/2 years before they can be MRI'd. Do I give away the other three that I know are affected, because I don't think I can sell a dog known to be affected. Next are the bitches we use for breeding, they're going to cost a bit more than the boys. How many girls will we have to "go through" to find 1 that meets the protocol for breeding? I need a lot more girls than boys, so the costs multiply; presently I have 4 girls of breeding age, with 3 more coming up to replace the ones that will be too old in a couple years. All of this is ignoring the MVD problem; I have been EXTREMELY lucky in that I have had almost no problems with MVD (only 1 dog that we had to stop breeding).

My wife and I have been agonizing over this problem for a while now because we don't see any way that we can afford to breed under the current protocol; we are not wealthy people. We think we would have to at least double the price of our puppies to just get to point of our current losses. And we are slightly above the average cost of puppies from reputable breeders in this area. I just don't see any way that people would pay that kind of money when they can get puppies from others who don't test for a LOT less.

So I, as a breeder, need help in coming up with a solution to the financial realities of this problem. Maybe there isn't a solution or maybe people are willing to pay a lot more than I think. My wife is a lot more optimistic than I, but I just don't see a good solution to this, at least not for us. I know of only 2 breeders who are possibly wealthy enough to follow the current protocol and maintain prices at the current level. Would you really be willing to pay $4,000 to $5,000 for a puppy if you knew they came from a breeder following the protocol?

HELP!
 
I know absolutely nothing about breeding, but this is more of a logistics or marketing question. Basically, the protocol increases the cost of producing quality "product" (please excuse the language-we all love our dogs). Business requires, generally, then that the increased cost gets passed along to the consumer through increased prices. However, your fear is that the increased cost will be so great that demand for the product will fall, leaving you, the producer, with an overstock of high quality, expensive product.

There are several ways to look at this situation. If you look at it strictly from a business standpoint: If your reasoning is purely profit, then it's certainly not the way to go. Any BYB can tell you that.

If you're in it for more than simply business profit, then the more expensive route is the best option for the future of the breed. This is an idealistic concept, and for some breeders, an impractical goal. It would mean that you, with your breed's best interest at heart, would have to stop breeding since you cant afford it or find some other type of supplemental funding to allow you to keep the product cost down to keep demand up. A sponsor, perhaps? A rich benefactor who loves the breed? It's the same concept as advertising: you cant afford to make TV shows without the sponsorship of other companies (via commercials).

There's also the route of trying to find a way to keep the costs at a minimum while still breeding to the protocol. Perhaps this situation could produce a middle man to the breeding process. A person who doesnt actually breed the dogs, but raises quality breeding stock, tracking the health of each animal and then selling the breed-worthy animals at a much higher price than the animals that have defects. Then one has to wonder what happens to the animals that are labeled not breedable? Surely, this would result in middle-man BYB who pts the unworthy animals; the rescue organizations would be flooded with breeder rejects. Still, done correctly, it would ensure the breed's health would improve and the breeder would not have to "go through" numerous dogs to find breeding quality.

Of course, if the route changes and you have to give up breeding because it is simply too expensive for you, those who can afford to continue breeding to protocol will still up the price of the pups because the supply would greatly diminish. Then, those who can afford to buy the pups would be those with excess of money to spend, and the dog would become a breed limited to the upper crust of society (even more than it already is) and the common folk would be left with the breeder rejects that are sold at reduced prices because they have MVD or SM, etc. (And then we'd pay out the wazoo for their medical care!)

There are other options, of course, but your questions to raise a number of issues that question the practicality of breeding to protocol. Is there a solution that works best for society as well as the breed?
 
Bruce,

I will try not to repeat what I have already said but probably will. I know there is an answer for you which won't break the bank. Before we get into that I would like to put this discussion into perspective, or at least mine. We are talking about living beings. It is not about how much we love cavaliers, enjoy showing and the social connections made as a result of this endeavor. Our desire to breed the cavalier comes second to whether we should be doing so. Are we unwilling to take the advice of the researchers, who have put together a protocol to help LOWER the chance of producing a cavalier who will spend its life in pain, because it will increase our expenses? Are we willing to continue breeding blindly knowing that with each generation SM will be more prevalent and severe? Are we willing to live with ourselves knowing that our vested interests are clouding our judgement?

Lets say you could not live with that but the whole outlook is to overwhelming. Then don't look to far into the future, this can be paralzing. I believe we will have more information and lower cost MRI clinics, if still needed, sooner rather than later. There is a breeder 8 hrs away from where you live who is working on such a clinic now.

Now to your situation. You have a few girls who are asymptomatic. Lets say you have one MRI'd and she is a D ->2.5 yrs SM present occipital hypoplasia and pass MVD. She can be bred to an A or B. There are MRI'd dogs available for stud now. So if a dog with a D rating can be bred to an A or B why not assume your girl is a D and breed her to an A or B. Also remember that she should be an outstanding example of breed type. By the time the resulting pups are old enough to be bred we should have the answers we need or at least low cost MRI scanning available.

Ideally, I would like you to MRI at least one girl. I believe the results of the various pairings of MRI'd cavaliers will be of enormous value. There is a list, other than the UK list, of scanned cavaliers being created. I believe it will have results other than just A*.

Bruce please read these heartfelt postings on the SM support group site: 14076, 14084, 14088.

I hope this has helped you with some of your questions and concerns.

Take Care,
Kathleen
 
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