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An interesting bit of information

The KC health survey a few years ago was not a great success - it was aimed particularly at breeders, and the return rate for almost all breeds was dismal. Also, as far as Cavaliers were concerned, it was before any of the low cost scan schemes got started, so scan results from Cavaliers were still comparatively few. But if the KC were supposed to be focusing on SM in the Health Zone at Crufts, they should have done their homework and at least looked at Clare Rusbridge's website. There were better-informed people around later in the day.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
This chap obviously knew I was new to this and took advantage and fobbed me off, I am sorry the information I bought back was virtually rubbish but I believe from what he said, the Kennel Club will continue to gloss over
the problems and not deal with them. He is putting more responsibility on the breed clubs and blaming the RSPCA. I have talked tonight to the lady who is campaigning for Wire
Haired Pointers, her website is www.ourdogalfie.com Phillipa Robinson talked to the KC came to the same conclusion as myself but is able to perhaps relay the information better than I can. I have asked her to
e mail her understanding! Phillipa also works with a lady who is campaigning for Pugs, what she has suggested that we all find two other campaigners each and we all join together as one which will make our voice louder!
 
Jeff Sampson has in the past complained because the research samples are not proper clinical samples, yet so far every research group worldwide gets about the same number of affected cavaliers -- at least about 40% having syrinxes, and this is also supported by the reports from club breeders who have reported back that the neurologists scanning the CLUB dogs on the low cost schemes are saying about 50% have syrinxes. This was posted publicly by people such as the UK club secretary, who has scanned many dogs, and confirmed by others. Yet Jeff Sampson thinks these are less likely to be accurate compared to a far more skewed sample of self-reporting breeders almost none of whom had scanned their dogs at the time of the breed survey? Boy, that is cloud cuckoo land stuff, wishful thinking and shocking that it is coming from the KC's geneticist. I was there at an SM conference when this man insisted a proper clinical sample was needed yet he himself is choosing to cite about as unclinical a sample as one can get -- of mostly breeders reporting on whether they *think* they might have an SM dog? Good grief. :sl*p:

I don't think there's a club breeder in the UK who seriously thinks only 3% of the breed has syrinxes. Even amongst the most skeptical.

And BTW researchers have been turned down several times in their attempts to get a clinical sample funded. Maybe Jeff Samspon should be campaigning for this? On the other hand -- how convenient to keep demanding a clinical sample, while also ensuring one is never created. No better way to ensure waffly arguments can continue to be put forward.
 
An Interesting Bit of Information

I sure can confirm about Karlin has Posted,but about another Gentleman at the KC, Bill Lambert ,the Health and Accredited Breeders Organiser, I was arguing with him about a year ago, about the SM Cavalier Figures on the Phone, and this is exactly what he told me ,the KC are using the BVA/KC Cavalier Health SM Survey Figures.

This Survey ,I think was done in 2004.

Bet
 
I find that very annoying ladies.Why put out of date and misleading information in the public domain?
When I was looking at cavaliers three and a half years ago I looked up as much info as I could on health issues and the predominantly quoted rate for SM was 1% which I figured to be a very acceptable risk.
and yes I did know what what Syringomyelia was before I ever had a cavalier...
Had I known the true picture I would have crossed the cavalier off the list of potential dogs almost immediately.
Sad but true..
Sins
 
An Interesting Bit of Information

I don't know whether this will be of any interest in the Present discussion.

Here it is.
In 2004, that was 6 YEARS ago ,there were 1150 forms sent out to Cavalier Owners

306 were returned

The Break-down for SM was

19 were returned as Neurologic Problems ,including SM

That was given in the Survey as 2.8

It was also mentioned that the Survey Figures should be Interpeted with Caution

That I believe will be the Survey that has been referred to.

This was published by the KC,as the BVA/KC Health Survey.

I would think ,if there are now Results coming through from the MRI Scans, they will be giving a more up to date picture about the SM Problem in Cavaliers.

Any-way what is shown ,is that there is a SM Problem in our Cavalier Breed,and should not be being left like the MVD Problem was, which has Decimated Cavaliers.

Bet
 
An Interesting Bit of Information

Hope it's O K passing on this Information.

It's to do with MRI Scan Results of Cavaliers in Australia.

There had been 60 Dogs MRI Scanned ,not cases referred to the Neurologist ,just owners wanting their Dogs Scanned

50 % had a Syrinx ,a Syrinx denotes SM.

I would think just about all Cavaliers in Australia will have originated from Britain in the early days.

These Dogs had not been showing any SM Symptoms.

I would think ,that this is for everybody in the Cavalier World alarming news.

Is it possible that if a number of Cavaliers are MRI Scanned at random, who have shown no signs of SM , 50% of them can have this Insidious
Disease?

Bet
 
I'd assume that is primarily a group of breeder dogs being scanned for breeding purposes? That 50%-ish figure is remarkably consistent across the world for the breed.
 
An Interesting Bit of Information

Yes Karlin,

I would think that would be why they were being MRI Scanned.

Will this not be what could be called a Random Sample. ?

It surely must give a idea as to the SM Cavalier Figures.

I would think the SM Figures in Cavaliers that have come from Neurologists could be because the Cavaliers have been MRI Scanned because they are suspected of having SM, but this figure is from Cavaliers from a Cavalier Club,and maybe could be giving a more accurate picture of the Cavalier SM Problem.

I don't know ,but would approx 60 Cavaliers being Randomly MRI Scanned, be quite a big number to be giving a SM Figure.

How many would be needed ,to be taken at Random to give MRI information for SM. Can any-body find out ?

Bet
 
If you take a look at Claire Rusbridge's veterinary neurology site there's some helpful information there regarding the prevalence of SM.
http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/part2.htm#16

You'll also see that the proposed random sampling of 200 middle aged cavaliers has failed to secure funding.
However,it would purely be an academic exercise to try to quantify the % of affected cavaliers.
The incidence of SM is sufficiently high to merit major concern.
The idea that it's business as usual for cavalier breeders and owners is just untenable.
Thankfully there are many proactive breeders who don't need to wait for the Kennel Club or anyone else to get a grip on the situation.If this means Mri scanning or importing new blood into the genepool,then good for them and even better for the dogs.
It looks like people are tackling different pieces of the puzzle,from arranging scanning days for clubs,Supporting FTR or the cavalier collection scheme and even Rupert's fund,it's all valuable work.
It could still be a rocky road ahead for the breed, so we either support the breeders who make every effort to produce a healthy litter or we'd be better off finding a rescue dog from a pound.
Sins
 
This is actually a very interesting report and I have noted that the original post on the Australian cavaliers comes from a talk given by an Australian neurologist to the Australian CKCS Club -- considering 60 cavaliers scanned by her for breeders, all cavaliers brought in with NO symptoms and would have been presumed to be clear.

Instead, of these 60 show breeder, asymptomatic dogs, 50% had syrinxes -- eg 50% had syringomyelia.

This must have been both a sobering and shocking result for those involved and surely must hammer home to breeders everywhere that this is not a problem to be disregarded or swept under the carpet and some breeders and officials must stop arguing that the problem isn't as bad as researchers make it out to be from what they see in practice. How for example can the Kennel Club continue to argue that these are skewed samples -- much less that the real figure might be only 3% affected? This begins to border on the deliberately deceptive if clubs or KC officials try to claim single figure levels of affectedess in the face of overwhelming international evidence now that at LEAST half of cavaliers seem to end up with SM -- I say at least because remember the vast majority of dogs in these samples are only about 2-4, breeding age. As SM is progressive, the rate for an older cluster of dogs -- say 60 dogs aged 8 -- would undoubtedly be considerably higher again.

This would not be considered a formal random clinical sample, Bet, but it would be a pretty close approximation as the dogs were all seen to be without symptoms and therefore, there was no presumption of SM and they weren't brought in because they were symptomatic (as some proportion of say Geoff Skerritt's large sample of scanned cavaliers would be -- though most of his are also breeder dogs using the low cost scanning programme, not clinical cases from pet or breeder owners).

I hope many more breeders might consider having their older dogs scanned to help the genome research and thus ultimately to help the gBVs from Sarah Blott which breeders can use to pinpoint their best breeding choices for any cavalier.

Penny Knowler and Clare Rusbridge are looking now for further older (6+) asymtpomatic dogs for subsidised scanning for the genome/EBV work. There is funding right away for at least two dogs, thanks to Rupert's Fund, and should be enough very shortly for one or two more. :)

Please, if people know of breeders who might have potential scan candidates, or pet owners with pedigreed older dogs that might be good for this programme, contact Penny at [email protected]. Enquiries are confidential and discussions, scans and results are between the researchers and dog owners.
 
An Interesting Bit of Information

Just to say I was shocked to get the Figure of a Random Sample of approx 60 Cavaliers ,with no symptoms of SM ,that 50% had Syrinxes ,which denotes SM.

This is the first time I have seen a Random Sample Figure of SM in Cavaliers quoted.

This sure blows a hole in the Percentage of SM in Cavaliers that was given on Saturday at Crufts.

If this is the case ,then how many SM Carriers of the SM Gene/Genes will there be.

I don't know, but is the only way for the Future of our Cavalier Breed ,is to find the SM Gene/Genes.

Is the Foetal Tissue Research looking for the SM Gene/Genes also?

If not , how does it benefit the Cavalier Breed.

Sorry to be a bit Thick about that Research, I can understand looking for the Faulty SM Gene/Genes ,but what is the FTR doing if not looking for the Faulty SM Genes.

Bet
 
Karlin said:
... This would not be considered a formal random clinical sample, Bet, but it would be a pretty close approximation as the dogs were all seen to be without symptoms and therefore, there was no presumption of SM and they weren't brought in because they were symptomatic (as some proportion of say Geoff Skerritt's large sample of scanned cavaliers would be -- though most of his are also breeder dogs using the low cost scanning programme, not clinical cases from pet or breeder owners). ...
Click to expand...

I think Dr. Child's Australian sample is more valuable than a true random sample, because it is likely limited to (potential?) breeding stock. It is like the heart auscultation exams at conformation shows' clinics in the late 1980s and 1990s, which laid the statistical foundation for the MVD breeding protocol in 1998. Most of the dogs taken to those heart clinics were breeding stock and were intended to be producing the next generation of Cavaliers.
--
Rod Russell
 
An Interesting Bit of Information

The more you think about this Information from Australia, the more of a worry it must be for the Cavalier World.

This is not about the CM ,but actually about SM.

I expect that if there were Cavaliers MRI Scanned here in Britain, taken at Random , the result would be the same.

Surely this should be known from all the MRI Scans that have been done ,all the Cavaliers who were MRI Scanned at the Cheaper Rates would not be just Cavaliers who were suspected of having SM.

Maybe some-body could have a way of getting this information.

I do think that this should be done ,to let us Lovers of Cavaliers know what the Breed is up against.

Bet
 
Maybe the Cavalier Clubs in each country could invite Neurologists to a Club Seminar, and ask them in advance to provide a "break-down" similar like what Dr Georgina Child gave in Australia. With this from each country I think that collectively there would be heaps more than 200 samples particularly as today more breeders around the world are testing. But then I think what Dr Georgina Child presented gave a good picture and as more are tested the picture would become better.

In Australia there certainly are Cavaliers that do have SM with symptoms. After the PDE documentary was Televised across Australia there was a 12 minute follow-up program which showed one of the Cavaliers who is called Sophie, and Dr Georgina Child appeared briefly and talked about Cavaliers and even mentioned a Cavalier Club website, see at this link address.
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2688984.htm

Edited in to add as I spotted the following.
Maybe this Seminar might present the latest figures in the UK and from around the world, maybe someone might contact the Chair Jeff Sampson as he might like to have the latest figures. Also I heard that there was mention at Cruft's that the Specialists were going to have a meeting in May regarding the BVA/KC Scheme for CM/SM, hmmm!!! The following is from this link address.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/events/clubshw.html#chd

CAVALIER HEALTH DAY

Royal Veterinary College
Hawkshead Lane
North Mymms
Hatfield
Hertfordshire
AL9 7TA

20th November 2010

Programme

Chair: Jeff Samson

09:30 Registration and coffee
10:00 Update on Mitral Valve Disease Research
Dr Brendan Corcoran, Edinburgh University
10:45 Update on Mitral Valve Disease
Simon Swift, European Veterinary Specialist in Cardiology
11:30 Inherited conditions in the CKCS and breeding strategies
Tom Lewis and Sarah Blott (AHT, Geneticists)
12:15; Round table discussion about MVD
13:00 Lunch
14:00 Imaging findings versus Clinic
Natasha Olby, USA
14:45 Neuropathic pain and how to treat
Dr Holger Volk, RVC
15:30 The story of the beginning - a study in CKCS puppies
Dr Imelda McGonnell, RVC
16:15 Round table discussion about SM
17:00 Close

Organised by The Cavalier Club in conjunction with the Royal Veterinary College and sponsored by Boehringer-Ingelheim Ltd.
.
 
Last edited:
Karlin said:
Penny Knowler and Clare Rusbridge are looking now for further older (6+) asymtpomatic dogs for subsidised scanning for the genome/EBV work.
Click to expand...
Karlin I noticed you mentioned "asymtpomatic dogs". Are they still after the following, note what I bolded and that in relation to the ages mentioned, and from this link address.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/syringo/sm_over_5.html

"The researchers are seeking DNA samples from cavaliers who are over 5 years of age, but preferably over 7, who have been MRI’d and do not have SM. They are also seeking samples from any close relatives that have also been MRI’d, for example siblings, half siblings and offspring. These dogs can be any age."
.
 
EddyAnne said:
CAVALIER HEALTH DAY
...
20th November 2010

Programme

Chair: Jeff Samson ...
Click to expand...


Hopefully Jeff will take the time to listen to what the experts have to say, and perhaps he will learn something about SM in CKCSs. Too bad we all have to wait until November for him to do so.
 
RodRussell said:
Hopefully Jeff will take the time to listen to what the experts have to say, and perhaps he will learn something about SM in CKCSs. Too bad we all have to wait until November for him to do so.
Click to expand...
Rod I also mentioned - "I heard that there was mention at Cruft's that the Specialists were going to have a meeting in May regarding the BVA/KC Scheme for CM/SM, hmmm!!!"

As it involves the KC who might be the KC Representative at that meeting, maybe Jeff Sampson. I noticed he Chaired other meetings even this one where I notice this mentioned.
"It was agreed that there is a need to standardise MRI scan results before certification. To facilitate this, The Kennel Club will organise a meeting of neurologists and radiologist to agree a protocol."
See at this link address.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/ebv/aht_meeting_270708.html

Note in the attendees - Dr Jeff Sampson, Kennel Club
Report of the Meeting to discuss proposed BVA KC Syringomyelia MRI screening
scheme held on 24th October at British Veterinary Association.
See at this link address and document in PDF format.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/bva_kc/SM_ MRI_ Nov_ 08.pdf
.
 
An Interesting Bit of Information

As I mentioned yesterday, how shocked I was to read that 50% of the Cavaliers in the SM Australian Cavalier Random Sample had SM ,to-day I am equally shocked to read ,that that's OK ,50% did'nt have SM.

Are some Cavalier Folk still Blinkered about the SM Problem in the Cavalier Breed?

Bet
 
I was told about the May meeting by the AHT clinician who was on the KC Health Zone - apparently they are going to now grade MRI scans as 0 = clear, 1 = syrinx present, and possibly 2 = severe, and allowance will be made for the differences in scans between low resolution and high resolution (not sure of technical word!) scanners. I think it's the MRI specialists who are going to sort it out, with minimal input from the KC - at least that's the impression I got.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
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