• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Breeder suggestions

I cannot reconcile the fact that these good breeders will posture around making a fuss over sales contracts, diet sheets and vaccinations, while they have deliberately chosen to breed their puppies to have less than a 50% chance of being SM free at the age of 30 months.

That sums up the issue very well.

Anyone on multiple email lists and chat boards might keep that in mind as a possible little red flag about some people. Endlessly amazing to me how 'health' for some means recommending raw diets, supplements, vaccination protocols... all the while, refusing to MRI. Health is a very little picture for such people, not a big picture requiring they take any real responsibility for the breed or the dogs they send off to families and other breeders. :(
 
The odd thing to me is that many of the better breeders I've talked to - mostly those who do MRIs and do not have any puppies available anyway - say they haven't seen the condition in their dogs. I even called a big veterinary practice where I live - the person who answered immediately regaled me with song and verse of everything he's seen wrong with Cavaliers but he says he hadn't seen it either. I realize the symptoms can be easy to miss but you'd think given the prevalence one would think he'd have seen at least one serious case (where it is obvious the dog is really suffering).

Then again I know a friend of a friend who had to put her Cavalier down because of SM.

It's really confusing to me. I've talked myself into and out of this breed more times than I can count. There is a very well-regarded veterinary school not far away; maybe I'll call them!
 
I am so pleased to you have said that your are confused Sfmom because I am as well. I was very lucky to find a puppy from scanned parents and would like to think that Charlie will always be a strong healthy boy. I live in Wales and had to be very careful who I bought my puppy from. We have always had cavvies in our family and I have a lot of friends with them too. I don't know of one single dog who has this disease and none of our family dogs have ever showed any signs. I don't think any of the dogs I know are from scanned parents. I find all of this really confusing as my vet also hasn't seen any cavvies suffering from SM. He thinks that the problem is more likely to be with their hearts. I just tried to do my best to buy a puppy with a better chance of having good health but all my friends dogs seem just as healthy as mine. Are they just lucky?
 
It is definitely confusing! :flwr: The thing is: once you actually know the symptoms, and once vets actually can recognise it (most will endlessly misdiagnose as well as miss most symptoms in mild cases as the dog isn't showing them all the time) -- vets see a lot of cases (mine regularly see them and regularly refer to the local vet school for MRIs). To be fair, expecting vets to properly diagnose SM in dogs is like expecting GPs to properly diagnose SM in humans -- it on average takes humans *years* to get the right diagnosis; even other specialists regularly miss it until they get to a neurologist and get an MRI. Reading human Chiari/SM forums and websites can be really helpful to understand the condition and its implications and difficulties better. :)

Vets everywhere would be unlikely to see a case of SM outside of a cavalier population (and in the US and Canada, they see relatively few cavaliers at most practices -- many here have found they have the only cavalier seen by the practice) and probably 90% wouldn't recognise it if they did see it. Clare Rusbridge says the cases she sees on average take over two years to finally get a diagnosis.

Probably the majority of dogs with the condition don;t show symptoms or symptoms that stand out from other common behaviours and symptoms in dogs. But for about 70% of us, if we MRI our dogs when they are older, they will have syrinxes. A FOURTH of cavaliers UNDER age 1 had syrinxes, in the 555 cavalier sample of mostly UK breeders' dogs from the largest study. That is a lot of cavaliers with syrinxes at a young age :(. A syrinx on its own, regardless of symptoms, would be considered a worrying incidental find by any parent of a child, by contrast. It brings a lot of worry over a lifetime about what might happen.

I refer a lot of people to my own vets when their vets won't believe the dog has SM so won't give a neurology referral. In every case so far the dog has had SM and was diagnosed as symptomatic.

Personal example: I have had 5 cavaliers; three have SM. Two would not be noticeable to most people and was never picked up by any vets they saw but I was sure they had it as I had a more symptomatic dog and recognised the scratching wasn't quite 'normal'. Scanning for research confirmed they had SM. The scratching has grown more obvious over the years but still has never been obvious to even most of my cavalier owning friends.

Neurologists say the worst symptoms for human SM and Chiari patients are regular headaches, often very severe. This is almost impossible to diagnose as a 'symptom' in a dog, meaning there's probably a lot of undiagnosed pain out there with this condition. Some researchers are currently trying to find better ways of diagnosing this type of pain, for this condition in dogs.
 
Ok please allow me to have a crack at how I see this issue. Again I'm not a cavalier owner, or a "dog" person I had no knowledge of SM or MVD or breeding protocols before I began my search of a cavalier as a family pet.


Alright, because cavaliers have these 2 major medical problems (SM and MDV) nevermind eye issues, knee problems, hip etc..... WE as BUYERS of these pets or show dogs have all the POWER to really help this breed by ONLY buying or dealing with breeders who follow breeding protocols for both. If more breeders do not get with the program we are all lovers of a domed breed. In time there will be not such thing as a Cavalier King Charles Spainel! This issue is serious and is now. I believe also as buyers or owners or anyone saying they are a Cavalier lover has a responsiblity to educate people so future buyers will be informed and ONLY support (give their money to) breeders who are following breeding protocols for MDV and SM. This is the only way to breed those genes out over time and some believe its already too late.

Personally, I would find it helpful if someone with more knowledge than me could explain the MDV and SM protocols as they stand now to us. I had a easy time finding info on the latest research however not one piece I read (even one SM protocol itself) explained it to me so I could easily understand. I know some now but again for future buyers. Also I believe maybe it would be wonderful to have some "trusted" list of breeders doing the REAL right thing for the breed.


I tried to be short but to the point.

The Weirdo Lady Without a Cavalier,
Melissa
 
... WE as BUYERS of these pets or show dogs have all the POWER to really help this breed by ONLY buying or dealing with breeders who follow breeding protocols for both. ...

I don't agree that we have much power in that area, because: Most CKCS breeders work very hard to downplay -- if not downright hide -- the MVD and SM issues. For example, neither of the two national clubs in the USA publicize the existence of the MVD or SM breeding protocols. That way, the clubs keep most pet buyers and most breeders in the dark about these two severe disorders.

I agree that we could have that power, if more of us would familiarize ourselves about these disorders. But right now, we are in a small minority among pet buyers and even the breeders themselves. Cavalier breeders have a wealth of ignorant people to sell puppies to.

...If more breeders do not get with the program we are all lovers of a domed breed.

You must mean "doomed". Cavaliers aren't domed, but King Charles spainels (English Toys) are. :D

...Personally, I would find it helpful if someone with more knowledge than me could explain the MDV and SM protocols as they stand now to us. ...

Well, try this for the MVD breeding protocol: http://www.cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm

And this for the SM breeding protocol: http://www.cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm#Rusbridge_Syringomyelia
 
Last edited:
Let me tell my personal experience with a vet and SM. I had to get his partner to refer me to a neurologist after calling in tears because Ella would not move after I threw a ball.

I had brought up SM and he said he knows all about it and he hasn't seen anything in Charlotte, and it's geographic in nature. He thought we should just "keep an eye on things". I knew my baby had it. The MRI showed severe SM.

Funny that after Ella a close friend was referred to a neurologist too by vet. (she's on forum). I'm not sure how many more but Ella's neurologist was shocked because he thought was a good vet. Maybe many more were referred after, I don't know but what was not in Charlotte was. What Karlin wrote was spot on. My eyes are tearing up writing this but I wonder how much she suffered as we "waited and see". Let me add my friends didn't think anything was wrong with her but she had quirky behaviors. I just knew symptoms and read a book that put it all together for me.
 
I like 'domed' -- but know you meant doomed. :lol:

I would argue in agreement that puppy buyers DO have all the power -- if they use it wisely. If breeders of all sorts couldn't sell puppies, they wouldn't breed or would change breeds. The fact that breed clubs and many breeders underplay or hide the reality about breed conditions and that breed clubs have been woeful about education in the area for their own members doesn't change the basic truth that where people choose to buy puppies can change what breeders do -- whether puppy farmers or champion show breeders.
 
I totally agree with Karlin. I have got three Cavaliers. One has symptomatic CM the other has symptomatic SM. If I wouldn’t be on this Forum and be informed about SM/CM I think my two would be suffering now. My Ebony was only diagnosed because she couldn’t jump up anymore so she had an MRI that showed degenerated Discs and CM. When I put two and two together I thought that she was showing signs of symptomatic CM and Clare Rusbridge confirmed it, now on medication she is a lot better. Normal Pet owners that don’t know about the many signs of CM/SM would not even have thought that anything was wrong with Ebony only that she has quirky behaviours and as she doesn’t look in pain people wouldn’t think she is in pain. Dogs don’t need to scratch them self raw or scream to be in pain. Just normal scratching indicates that they are at least in discomfort or pain. My Harley was diagnosed with symptomatic SM because we thought he had an agility injury, so yes a lot of owners will never even know their dog is in pain. My vet knew about SM but was thankful that I knew a lot more.
 
I don't agree that we have much power in that area, because: Most CKCS breeders work very hard to downplay -- if not downright hide -- the MVD and SM issues. For example, neither of the two national clubs in the USA publicize the existence of the MVD or SM breeding protocols. That way, the clubs keep most pet buyers and most breeders in the dark about these two severe disorders.

I agree that we could have that power, if more of us would familiarize ourselves about these disorders. But right now, we are in a small minority among pet buyers and even the breeders themselves. Cavalier breeders have a wealth of ignorant people to sell puppies to.



You must mean "doomed". Cavaliers aren't domed, but King Charles spainels (English Toys) are. :D



Well, try this for the MVD breeding protocol: http://www.cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm

And this for the SM breeding protocol: http://www.cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm#Rusbridge_Syringomyelia



Rod- sorry I did mean doomed. And thanks for the links I will check them out for sure. However, I do believe the BUYER has power. Your right we are a small group with proper knowledge and yes those big groups who downplay the protocols are this breeds biggest problem in addition to MVD and SM. But the only way to fix it is to educate people and spread these issues. I realize you know way more about this than me and have more than likely worked with these problems for years maybe that is why you think my views are unrealistic or idealistic. But knowledge is power so is money.

Thats just how I see it
Melissa
 
I totally agree with Karlin. I have got three Cavaliers. One has symptomatic CM the other has symptomatic SM. If I wouldn’t be on this Forum and be informed about SM/CM I think my two would be suffering now. My Ebony was only diagnosed because she couldn’t jump up anymore so she had an MRI that showed degenerated Discs and CM. When I put two and two together I thought that she was showing signs of symptomatic CM and Clare Rusbridge confirmed it, now on medication she is a lot better. .

Sabby how do you know that her pain is from CM. Why wouldn't it be from the degenerated discs. I have disc problems and I can tell you that it is very painful.
 
Sabby how do you know that her pain is from CM. Why wouldn't it be from the degenerated discs. I have disc problems and I can tell you that it is very painful.

Symptoms of CM would be different from disk disease alone -- an important reason to see a neurologist with expertise in both areas if an owner feels signs do not fit one condition entirely, so that an essential part of diagnosis and treatment isn't overlooked. (y)

I had one with disk pain and her pain session before diagnosis had similarities to SM but was different and she lacked other SM signs... later MRI confirmed her clear for SM, very mild CM, but she did have degenerated disks. Again this is why vets often miss CM/SM -- they will go with a diagnosis of what they know and see all the time and are not familiar with the other likelihoods.
 
One of the posts in this thread (can't now track down which) said that symptoms of what proved to be SM were initially put down to Cavalier 'quirks'. While recognising that Cavaliers as a breed do have some physiological oddities such as extra white blood platelets and a few other things, I think we all need to be saying in unison:
Cavaliers do not have any more quirks than any other breeds.

According to the dictionary a quirk is a peculiar behaviour. Many Cavalier so-called quirks tend to be viewed as a cute Cavalier 'thing' - just the way they are.
Rubbing their heads against the floor or the sofa is not a quirk.
Scratching for no apparent reason is not a quirk.
Scratching when touched around the neck is not a quirk.
Squinting in sunlight is not a quirk.
Changing position or resting place frequently is not a quirk.
Stumbling occasionally when walking is not a quirk.

None of these is a strange but rather cute Cavalier 'thing', something that a lot of Cavaliers do for no apparent reason, a quirk of the breed - they can be and often are symptoms of SM. So another slogan for us to adopt:
Cavaliers don't have quirks, they (may) have symptoms.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
Wow, I'm sorry it took me so long to get back, my kids were vomiting for a few days straight and I was up to my elbows in things I've never wanted to be up to my elbows in.

I got none of these responses until just now, but I'll let you know how conversations started and deteriorated. Before husband brought home Winston, I had emailed a number of breeders for information. It was when her 4 bitches were going into heat, and at that time she said "Of course we aren't going to breed all four, but..." and went on to tell me she would certainly have some pups within a few months and offered to put me on a mailing list of people interested in the puppies for updates. I thought nothing of it until I got an email talking about xrays and puppy counts. I raised eyebrows at the 4 litters due at the same time thing, but went ahead and emailed her back asking for her health certs. She sent vets phone number and went on a 2 paragraph rant about puppy millers and how current trends in legislature are encouraging them while threatening to shut down breeders who treat their dogs like family, which came out of no where. I didn't even call the vet, just asked again about certs. She blew the question off again and I asked to be removed from her mailing list. I may or may not have done all of that while sending the entire conversation to the whole mailing list.

Oops.

I will be calling Roycroft when the time comes, and ignoring any random emails that may pop up from previously contacted breeders in the mean time.
 
Also, SFMom, if you live where your name looks like you live, the vet school at Davis has been a godsend for my best friend and her pugs. Is that where you were talking about?
 
Symptoms of CM would be different from disk disease alone -- an important reason to see a neurologist with expertise in both areas if an owner feels signs do not fit one condition entirely, so that an essential part of diagnosis and treatment isn't overlooked. (y)

I had one with disk pain and her pain session before diagnosis had similarities to SM but was different and she lacked other SM signs... later MRI confirmed her clear for SM, very mild CM, but she did have degenerated disks. Again this is why vets often miss CM/SM -- they will go with a diagnosis of what they know and see all the time and are not familiar with the other likelihoods.


Emma - Her head rubbing and scratching wouldn’t come from her disc problems. Funny enough my vet suggested that her disc problem would course Ebony more problems, but when Clare Rusbridge looked at Ebony’s scan and examined her she disagreed and said that with care (like no stairs and jumping) ebony could lead hopefully a good life and that her CM would course more discomfort/pain then her discs.
 
She sent vets phone number and went on a 2 paragraph rant about puppy millers and how current trends in legislature are encouraging them while threatening to shut down breeders who treat their dogs like family, which came out of no where. I didn't even call the vet, just asked again about certs. She blew the question off again and I asked to be removed from her mailing list.

Good move! Someone sending a vet's number is a red flag on its own–with most breeds, there will be certificates that are not supplied by a vet, and that is definitely true of cavaliers. It is an indication that she isn't using a cardiologist, she isn't doing MRIs, and probably not doing a whole lot else except running her dogs in an out of the vet like any pet owner would. And you were right in guessing that her refusal to engage at all on a direct question meant she didn't have any reasonable reply. But all these things make finding a good breeder especially hard–many of these kinds of replies can sure seem to be adequate if you don't know what to ask about, or you don't know what is a deceptive answer and what is a good answer. It's hard to give a brief summary of health areas that are very complex too–in other words, there isn't really any shortcut for the puppy buyer, except to read as much as possible, educate ourselves as best we can, look for advice from others who've been there before and might be able to give a more informed perspective, and so on. But sometimes it's easier to tell when you're being fobbed off–as you clearly were with this woman! She didn't have the right answer, so she was sending you off to talk to someone who would give you a different answer–and still, not the right answer. :rolleyes:

I kind of hope that you did make your reply to the entire mailing list. :D
 
Back
Top