Karen and Ruby
Well-known member
Ooh I forgot to thank Sandy for explaining the breeding process in a bit more detail to me
Karen
Karen
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Confused
- Thread starter Bet
- Start date
WoodHaven
Well-known member
Ooh I forgot to thank Sandy for explaining the breeding process in a bit more detail to me
Karen
If you ever get the chance to help at a whelping, you will be amazed. Like witnessing any birth, it is a powerful experience.
Could I be allowed this comment.
Much mention is being made on the Cavalier Chat List at the moment ,on how Cavalier Breeders are feeling the same Pain as we Cavalier Pet Owners have,when we lost our Cherished Cavaliers at young ages, I know how dreadful it is to have our Pet die at any age, but, and I will stick to the MVD Cavalier Problem, I know more about it.
If has been claimed by those Cavalier Breeders , who feel distraught when their Cavalier dies, why on earth ,when the Ball was in their Court ,did they persist in Breeding Cavaliers who were dying at a young age from Heart Trouble.
This has been shown at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM ,when the Cardiologist said, 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,.
That this is no better than the problem was 18 years ago.
I have said this before ,Dr B Cattanach ,Geneticist, and Bruce Field ,the CKCS's Health Representive , who were trying 20 years ago, to help the CKCS CLUB with the MVD Problem, walked away in disgust at the attitude of some Cavalier Breeders.
I really do wonder, if the dire straights the Breed is in because of the MVD Problem ,where it is now claimed that 100% of Cavaliers will be suffering from MVD at 10 years of age, will ever recover.
Now the Breed has the Insideous SM Disease to combat, .
There are some Cavalier Breeders trying their best ,as Karlin mentiond in fighting those Two Diseases afflicting the Breed,,so when Cavalier Breeders claim to understand the Distress we Cavalier Pet Owners know about when our Beloved Pet dies, then for goodness sake let all those Cavalier Breeders work with the Researchers ,Researching SM and MVD,pass on all the information they can .
Don't let it being said in 20 years time ,that MVD and SM is no better than it was in 2009.
Finally as Karlin also said, we Cavalier Pet Owners have our part to play in this, what an Important tool we now have, the INTERNET .
Spread the word ,don't buy from a Cavalier Breeder who has not carried out Health Tests on their Cavalier Breeding Stock .
Always ask to see a Health Certificate from a Cavalier Breeder showing that they have been concerned enough to have been Health Checking their Breeding Stock.
Much mention is being made on the Cavalier Chat List at the moment ,on how Cavalier Breeders are feeling the same Pain as we Cavalier Pet Owners have,when we lost our Cherished Cavaliers at young ages, I know how dreadful it is to have our Pet die at any age, but, and I will stick to the MVD Cavalier Problem, I know more about it.
If has been claimed by those Cavalier Breeders , who feel distraught when their Cavalier dies, why on earth ,when the Ball was in their Court ,did they persist in Breeding Cavaliers who were dying at a young age from Heart Trouble.
This has been shown at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM ,when the Cardiologist said, 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,.
That this is no better than the problem was 18 years ago.
I have said this before ,Dr B Cattanach ,Geneticist, and Bruce Field ,the CKCS's Health Representive , who were trying 20 years ago, to help the CKCS CLUB with the MVD Problem, walked away in disgust at the attitude of some Cavalier Breeders.
I really do wonder, if the dire straights the Breed is in because of the MVD Problem ,where it is now claimed that 100% of Cavaliers will be suffering from MVD at 10 years of age, will ever recover.
Now the Breed has the Insideous SM Disease to combat, .
There are some Cavalier Breeders trying their best ,as Karlin mentiond in fighting those Two Diseases afflicting the Breed,,so when Cavalier Breeders claim to understand the Distress we Cavalier Pet Owners know about when our Beloved Pet dies, then for goodness sake let all those Cavalier Breeders work with the Researchers ,Researching SM and MVD,pass on all the information they can .
Don't let it being said in 20 years time ,that MVD and SM is no better than it was in 2009.
Finally as Karlin also said, we Cavalier Pet Owners have our part to play in this, what an Important tool we now have, the INTERNET .
Spread the word ,don't buy from a Cavalier Breeder who has not carried out Health Tests on their Cavalier Breeding Stock .
Always ask to see a Health Certificate from a Cavalier Breeder showing that they have been concerned enough to have been Health Checking their Breeding Stock.
Yorkysue
Well-known member
Bet
I think you do some of these breeders a disservice when you seem to question whether they feel pain when they lose a much cherished dog. There can be no doubt that they will feel pain just as you do.
They recent posts on what causes MVD and SM have shown that both these problems are likely to be caused by a number of genes in each case. Breeding these problems out will take years and years.
I think you are bashing the wrong breeders. The ones you've just had a go at on the other forum are the ones who do test their dogs. Give credit where it's due. Just because you have fallen out with them, please don't turn against the very ones who are trying.
Bet
I think you do some of these breeders a disservice when you seem to question whether they feel pain when they lose a much cherished dog. There can be no doubt that they will feel pain just as you do.
They recent posts on what causes MVD and SM have shown that both these problems are likely to be caused by a number of genes in each case. Breeding these problems out will take years and years.
I think you are bashing the wrong breeders. The ones you've just had a go at on the other forum are the ones who do test their dogs. Give credit where it's due. Just because you have fallen out with them, please don't turn against the very ones who are trying.
Wise words Sue..............we are trying, very hard, and quite honestly, it can be very disheartening to be 'bashed' over and over again, when you are doing your best.
It can be difficult enough to recover from a bad result after following the protocol to the letter, without someone thrusting it in your face, in what sometimes feels like a 'gleeful' way.
Maintaining a relationship with puppy buyers is very important to me and to many of my fellow-breeders.
We, none of us, have any 'issues' with those to whom we have sold puppies, so it seems extremely unfair, even damaging, that someone like Bet seems to be on a mission to drive a wedge between those who breed to the best of their ability and those who buy from them.
I must add my surprise that many of her remarks are allowed to go uncensored on the Forum.
I only dip into the Cavaliertalk Forum occasionally, and do enjoy reading and helping a bit with the various posts when I can, so, if I am asked to leave now, as I suspect I will be, please accept my thanks for allowing me to join you even for such a short time.
Elspeth Glen
MARK MARSHALL
Well-known member
Bashing Breeders.....................
Elspeth,
Some bashing is without doubt necessary but YOU are to the best of my knowledge NOT one of them to be so bashed. You have great knowledge and have been scanning for many years.
So, I would ask you personally not to feel disheartened because of some of your peers.
They know who they are and so do you.
I particularly bash those who dont scan. They ALL should be helping out with submitting results and any other form of data.
Those who refuse to do so and voice doubt on the scientists/researchers are not helping the breed.
Well done to you personally but some bashing must continue, otherwise it will all go quiet and breeding will continue outside of any protocols.
It is so important that the Club Committees and the KC give out the message that certain behaviour will not under any circumstances be ignored.
Regards Mark Marshall.
Elspeth,
Some bashing is without doubt necessary but YOU are to the best of my knowledge NOT one of them to be so bashed. You have great knowledge and have been scanning for many years.
So, I would ask you personally not to feel disheartened because of some of your peers.
They know who they are and so do you.
I particularly bash those who dont scan. They ALL should be helping out with submitting results and any other form of data.
Those who refuse to do so and voice doubt on the scientists/researchers are not helping the breed.
Well done to you personally but some bashing must continue, otherwise it will all go quiet and breeding will continue outside of any protocols.
It is so important that the Club Committees and the KC give out the message that certain behaviour will not under any circumstances be ignored.
Regards Mark Marshall.
MARK MARSHALL
Well-known member
Deciding on who is 'good' or 'bad'........................
The first thing to do is for the Good Guys to listen to the public, their customers and start selling themselves in a way that demonstrates why they are good.
Expecting bashing to stop will only help the ones that we need to make, change their ways.
The responsible Breeders (me included I trust) need to have more confidence and be prepared to shout more loudly.
A data base needs to be started where ALL good breeders register their dogs and openly record results for ALL health checks, especially SM MVD and EYES, plus others.
By doing this it will show and promote the Good guys and leave the Bad guys with a decision to make. Either change their ways or stay in the wilderness.
The Regional Clubs and especially the CKCS Club need to set Standards, rather than just going with the flow and not doing as they should for fear of upsetting mates or being alienated.
Yes the show scene might change for a while but the future will be better and the Breed will emerge stronger and lets hope, healthier.
Too many people have sensible things to say and wish for change but remain silent. Such silence is not productive and lets dominant people run the show.
Just look at who ends up in positions of strength and ask yourself, "What truely motivates this person ?"
The Good guys should know that they are good and promote scanning for example and sound like a Lion rather than a Mouse.
Regards Mark Marshall.
The first thing to do is for the Good Guys to listen to the public, their customers and start selling themselves in a way that demonstrates why they are good.
Expecting bashing to stop will only help the ones that we need to make, change their ways.
The responsible Breeders (me included I trust) need to have more confidence and be prepared to shout more loudly.
A data base needs to be started where ALL good breeders register their dogs and openly record results for ALL health checks, especially SM MVD and EYES, plus others.
By doing this it will show and promote the Good guys and leave the Bad guys with a decision to make. Either change their ways or stay in the wilderness.
The Regional Clubs and especially the CKCS Club need to set Standards, rather than just going with the flow and not doing as they should for fear of upsetting mates or being alienated.
Yes the show scene might change for a while but the future will be better and the Breed will emerge stronger and lets hope, healthier.
Too many people have sensible things to say and wish for change but remain silent. Such silence is not productive and lets dominant people run the show.
Just look at who ends up in positions of strength and ask yourself, "What truely motivates this person ?"
The Good guys should know that they are good and promote scanning for example and sound like a Lion rather than a Mouse.
Regards Mark Marshall.
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WoodHaven
Well-known member
Interesting Mr. Marshall--- Very few of us in the world are saints (or destined for sainthood).
The more I read what you write, the more I can't accept where you are coming from.
I've raised two successful daughters-- didn't use any bashing, even when I disagreed with them. I found that leading by example and doing well to be the BEST way to get people to follow ones lead.
REALLY-- you are equating your supposed breeding guidelines for the definitive line between good breeders and bad breeders. Well, there is a commercial facility in Missouri that may change your mind.
I have permanent brick imprints on my forehead. icon_devil
The more I read what you write, the more I can't accept where you are coming from.
I've raised two successful daughters-- didn't use any bashing, even when I disagreed with them. I found that leading by example and doing well to be the BEST way to get people to follow ones lead.
REALLY-- you are equating your supposed breeding guidelines for the definitive line between good breeders and bad breeders. Well, there is a commercial facility in Missouri that may change your mind.
I have permanent brick imprints on my forehead. icon_devil
All I can ask again, this is about the MVD Problem ,is why on earth have the Cavalier Breeders ,since they claim to know about the Heart Ache that we Cavalier Pet Owners have known about when our Beloved Cavaliers have died at such early ages because of the MVD Problem that is rife in Cavaliers, did not do something about it ,when they were warned by Dr P Darke, and other Cardiologists, from about 30 years ago.
Hopefully some-body will answer this question.
It's all very well saying, that this that and the other is now being done, but the state the Cavaliers are in now, is it too late too save them, this should have been tackled years ago.
It is too be hoped that the SM Problem won't be going the same way as the Cavaliers MVD.
I have been told on the Phone by two Cavalier Breeders they will not be taking part in Dr Blott's EBV Program, even one said , that they would not be MRI Scanning.
I think Yorkiesue, that answers your question. Were any of the others who are havin a go at me, were you in the Cavalier Breed from 1980 onwards when the MVD Problem was getting warned about by the Cardiologists,. If you were, why has the MVD in Cavaliers reached the Proportions it has to-day.
Will some-body please tell me that.!!
Hopefully some-body will answer this question.
It's all very well saying, that this that and the other is now being done, but the state the Cavaliers are in now, is it too late too save them, this should have been tackled years ago.
It is too be hoped that the SM Problem won't be going the same way as the Cavaliers MVD.
I have been told on the Phone by two Cavalier Breeders they will not be taking part in Dr Blott's EBV Program, even one said , that they would not be MRI Scanning.
I think Yorkiesue, that answers your question. Were any of the others who are havin a go at me, were you in the Cavalier Breed from 1980 onwards when the MVD Problem was getting warned about by the Cardiologists,. If you were, why has the MVD in Cavaliers reached the Proportions it has to-day.
Will some-body please tell me that.!!
Yorkysue
Well-known member
All I can say is that both my first two cavaliers lived to nearly 14 yrs old - with no heart pills at all, and I have an oldie of nearly 12yrs old, who has just started on 1/2 pill a day, and he's fine and fighting fit, still going for long walks.
Are you absolutely sure that heart problems are worse now than in the past? I don't know.
I know you didn't do too well with your cavaliers,but lots of people have healthy dogs. I always keep mine nice and slim and not overwieght for a start! My next door neighbour's son, had had five or six dogs over the years from a well know local breeder (who has shown for 30-40 yrs) and all of them have lived well into their teens each time, with hardly a visit to the vets.
I can only say what I have seen, and I may have been lucky. But I a couple of friends that also have had cavaliers that have lived a long time.
What I read on this forum sometimes is that all cavaliers are ill and they are doomed. I don't know enough to comment on this with any authority, and I wonder if you do either? You quote specialists and experts, but often you seem to contradict youself.
Bashing people does not work - they just get fed up of listening - and then they ignore you.
Are you absolutely sure that heart problems are worse now than in the past? I don't know.
I know you didn't do too well with your cavaliers,but lots of people have healthy dogs. I always keep mine nice and slim and not overwieght for a start! My next door neighbour's son, had had five or six dogs over the years from a well know local breeder (who has shown for 30-40 yrs) and all of them have lived well into their teens each time, with hardly a visit to the vets.
I can only say what I have seen, and I may have been lucky. But I a couple of friends that also have had cavaliers that have lived a long time.
What I read on this forum sometimes is that all cavaliers are ill and they are doomed. I don't know enough to comment on this with any authority, and I wonder if you do either? You quote specialists and experts, but often you seem to contradict youself.
Bashing people does not work - they just get fed up of listening - and then they ignore you.
Yorkiesue ,
Can you or any-body else ignore the Fact that has been quoted on this List, that in 2007 8 of the Top Stud Cavaliers ,this in the UK CKCS CLUB Year Book were Bred from before they were 2 and a half Years of age.
This is the CKCS CLUB Breeding Guidelines for MVD.
As to your remark about letting our Cavaliers get fat ,we have had Pet Cavaliers since '73, so I think we knew not to let them get over-weght.
How- ever on the 2nd of November the APGAW Committee will be publishing their Report.
Just maybe they will have listened to what I have written to them about the serious MVD problem afflicting our Cavaliers.
Time will Tell.
Can you or any-body else ignore the Fact that has been quoted on this List, that in 2007 8 of the Top Stud Cavaliers ,this in the UK CKCS CLUB Year Book were Bred from before they were 2 and a half Years of age.
This is the CKCS CLUB Breeding Guidelines for MVD.
As to your remark about letting our Cavaliers get fat ,we have had Pet Cavaliers since '73, so I think we knew not to let them get over-weght.
How- ever on the 2nd of November the APGAW Committee will be publishing their Report.
Just maybe they will have listened to what I have written to them about the serious MVD problem afflicting our Cavaliers.
Time will Tell.
Margaret C
Well-known member
The problem is always with definition, how when writing a post do you manage to show that you are only talking about the breeders that are not breeding to the protocols?
Many cavalier owners visit these forums. I see posting here as a way of countering the inaccurate and misleading information put out by some of the top breeders that have most influence in cavalier circles.
I respect Elspeth as one of the most intelligent breeders I know, a lady who was one of the first to scan her cavaliers. I am truly sorry she feels that the ongoing discussions reflect badly on breeders of her calibre, but I am afraid in this case I do not agree that criticism of unethical breeders should stop.
I would like to think your health certificates, and an explanation of how carefully you follow the breeding protocols, would do that.
While the people that are seen to represent breeders, the club members who get themselves elected onto committees that give them a powerful voice in the future of the breed, continue to defend the indefensible (the continued use of an early onset SM stud dog, or multiple C. sections in a bitch mated on three consecutive seasons) then the reputation of breeders will suffer.
If breeders of integrity allow these people to run cavalier clubs & appear to speak on behalf of the whole cavalier breeding community, then the ethical breeders will continue to be identified with the 'bad guys'
Pet owners may be justified in drawing the conclusion that breeders in general 'don't care'
There is a saying 'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.'
Margaret C
Well-known member
According to the Cavalier Club cardiologist the heart problems are no better despite having a Cavalier Club heart testing scheme for over 18 years.
The heart medications are better and now buys MVD cavaliers more time, but at a considerable monetary cost to the owner
WoodHaven
Well-known member
I wish I could see actual statistics instead of one doctors word being taken as the end all be ALL for cavaliers (and thus the doom and gloom).
According to my cardiologist-- he has seen improvements and MANY breeders keep dogs into their mid teens have told you that they don't see "HALF OF ALL CAVALIERS GETTING MURMURS" by 5.
WoodHaven
Well-known member
Define unethical: Is overbreeding a stud dog unethical??? It IS asking for trouble.
Our reputations ARE ALL READY IN THE TRASH. Thank to the PDE-- one puppy buyer recently believes that a broker importing cavaliers from Ireland (who doesn't show-- this is just a broker) is where they should be buying a cavalier puppy in the USA. THAT way the puppy won't be tainted by show breeders breeding for looks. AND it was half the price of a show breeder pup.
Congratulations-- you are now indirectly promoting puppy brokers.
Margaret C
Well-known member
Ethical....... Conforming to accepted standards of conduct.
The frequent use of a stud dog is certainly asking for trouble, as I found to my, and other breeders, cost.
Looking at the above definition it would seem it is not yet unethical.
In what way did anything I say promote puppy brokers?
Margaret C
Well-known member
Things may be different in the USA. As I frequently point out I am talking about the UK.
This one cardiologist has been receiving results from Cavalier Club members for a great many years, so I would think he knows what he is talking about
WoodHaven
Well-known member
My cardio has been coming to our place for 7 years-- He keeps impeccable records and has seen good improvement. To make such a blanket statement (your club cardio) I would hope that he got statistics from many areas and many cardiologists-- hopefully even went the extra mile to get stats from other countries.
The people buying from a broker have head how terrible the show breeders are. They mentioned the PDE program as to why they will buy from an importer who NEVER shows.
Also, I was told that the PDE has made many people run their cavaliers to the vet to discuss euthanasia -- Because the dog itches.
But puppy buyers have ALWAYS gotten that misinformation from BYBs/brokers from long, long LONG before PDE made the average person aware of the real problems the breed has (Jeez, when breeders officially get excited at a dog without a heart murmur at age 6, and of dogs that live to just 10, the world is topsy turvy and we have accepted a standard so low it is nearly scraping the ground as far as breed health goes).
MOST puppy buyers will still go for cheaper dogs or dogs they can get faster or the 'nice' breeder who almost always is the bulk pet breeder/broker online. For that matter, show breeders good or bad could never, ever handle all the demand there is for puppies.
So a few more people are duped by bybs and brokers into thinking their puppies are healthier regarding SM? I don' t see that coming up on the junk breeder websites (most of which try not to mention health at all in any specific way). Still how is that different from what such places have always said to the gullible buyer -- eg dogs from the UK/Ireland don't have MVD (that was the main message they typically gave 5 years ago ).
It is on the breeder-focused lists that breeders themselves are saying the club-supported screening programmes are showing that HALF of all show breeder cavaliers screened have syrinxes. This was said by two breeders on Cavalier Chat for example, one of them whom I am sure would agree is not exactly a friend of PDE. With that level of serious health problems in the breed clearly arising in breeder screenings, then the issue has to be for the breeders to create the programmes and health focused breeding and research programmes to tackle the problem. Not to blame the messenger that at least notified the public and it seems, the KC and many club breeders, that there is a problem in the first place or a problem they simply MUST stop hiding and underplaying, just as MVD is endlessly underplayed (how can we accept a dog that doesn't get a murmur til after age 5 is a bonus? How sad is that?).
The lies from brokers, BYBs and puppy farms are eternal. The problem is -- so many pet owners have gotten short shrift from the 'reputable' breeders when they go back to them with affected puppies (including threats of lawsuits -- I have seen the correspondence) that many simply do not see what extra value the club breeders are currently offering. There's a lot of housecleaning that needs to be done by breeders themselves for buyers to believe they offer a better and more trusted option than a BYB or broker. I have been unstinting in arguing that buyers should still support the genuine, health focused breeder -- and give specific information on three websites on how to do this and what to look for. But the breed's problems are there for all to see, and the difficulty of making the decision to go with this breed remains. I faced that when SM was hardly an issue, but the threat of MVD was a huge issue for me.
In my experience as a puppy buyer, breeders and club websites did very little to educate me about where to go and what to look for in a good breeder on a *practical* level. Too many BYB/broker websites are designed to look as if they do the things the clubs recommend (eg 'heart test'). Too many 'reputable' breeders of well known kennels on both sides of the Atlantic (I could name 3 to 4 off the top of my head that feature highly in many BYB dogs now!) sell dogs on open registration to junk breeders, allowing undereducated buyers to think their puppies are from 'champion' stock (well, they are), supposedly of better health (if anything, the assumption is STILL that a show bred dog is likely to be of BETTER health and quality from everything I read and hear from actual buyers) and therefore enable the buyers to assume the junk breeders aren't the money-focused pet sellers they are, using no health protocols at all. Why are breeders publicly and privately defending such breeders and their 'reputations'? I also know of a puppy buyer told by the health rep of a major club to trust them and buy a puppy from an underage sire (1 year old) and untested parents ('because they are of good stock') simply because they come from another show breeder they know. Yet the same person goes on and on about running as fast as possible from any breeder offering puppies that can't show heart certs.
With that kind of confused message and lack of clear guidance for buyers, even those seeking the health-focused breeders have a hard time finding them and easily give up. Lack of information, poorly educating the buyer or being opaque about health issues in public from breeders and clubs, means most buyers never even try.
MOST puppy buyers will still go for cheaper dogs or dogs they can get faster or the 'nice' breeder who almost always is the bulk pet breeder/broker online. For that matter, show breeders good or bad could never, ever handle all the demand there is for puppies.
So a few more people are duped by bybs and brokers into thinking their puppies are healthier regarding SM? I don' t see that coming up on the junk breeder websites (most of which try not to mention health at all in any specific way). Still how is that different from what such places have always said to the gullible buyer -- eg dogs from the UK/Ireland don't have MVD (that was the main message they typically gave 5 years ago
).It is on the breeder-focused lists that breeders themselves are saying the club-supported screening programmes are showing that HALF of all show breeder cavaliers screened have syrinxes. This was said by two breeders on Cavalier Chat for example, one of them whom I am sure would agree is not exactly a friend of PDE. With that level of serious health problems in the breed clearly arising in breeder screenings, then the issue has to be for the breeders to create the programmes and health focused breeding and research programmes to tackle the problem. Not to blame the messenger that at least notified the public and it seems, the KC and many club breeders, that there is a problem in the first place or a problem they simply MUST stop hiding and underplaying, just as MVD is endlessly underplayed (how can we accept a dog that doesn't get a murmur til after age 5 is a bonus? How sad is that?).
The lies from brokers, BYBs and puppy farms are eternal. The problem is -- so many pet owners have gotten short shrift from the 'reputable' breeders when they go back to them with affected puppies (including threats of lawsuits -- I have seen the correspondence) that many simply do not see what extra value the club breeders are currently offering. There's a lot of housecleaning that needs to be done by breeders themselves for buyers to believe they offer a better and more trusted option than a BYB or broker. I have been unstinting in arguing that buyers should still support the genuine, health focused breeder -- and give specific information on three websites on how to do this and what to look for. But the breed's problems are there for all to see, and the difficulty of making the decision to go with this breed remains. I faced that when SM was hardly an issue, but the threat of MVD was a huge issue for me.
In my experience as a puppy buyer, breeders and club websites did very little to educate me about where to go and what to look for in a good breeder on a *practical* level. Too many BYB/broker websites are designed to look as if they do the things the clubs recommend (eg 'heart test'). Too many 'reputable' breeders of well known kennels on both sides of the Atlantic (I could name 3 to 4 off the top of my head that feature highly in many BYB dogs now!) sell dogs on open registration to junk breeders, allowing undereducated buyers to think their puppies are from 'champion' stock (well, they are), supposedly of better health (if anything, the assumption is STILL that a show bred dog is likely to be of BETTER health and quality from everything I read and hear from actual buyers) and therefore enable the buyers to assume the junk breeders aren't the money-focused pet sellers they are, using no health protocols at all. Why are breeders publicly and privately defending such breeders and their 'reputations'? I also know of a puppy buyer told by the health rep of a major club to trust them and buy a puppy from an underage sire (1 year old) and untested parents ('because they are of good stock') simply because they come from another show breeder they know. Yet the same person goes on and on about running as fast as possible from any breeder offering puppies that can't show heart certs.
With that kind of confused message and lack of clear guidance for buyers, even those seeking the health-focused breeders have a hard time finding them and easily give up. Lack of information, poorly educating the buyer or being opaque about health issues in public from breeders and clubs, means most buyers never even try.