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Discussion of Pedigree Dogs Exposed

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I just finished watching it on You Tube...and am speechless. Wow has that opened my eyes to what so many big name breeders are doing. I know who you are and you have no support from me (just a ignorant little pet owner!!!) but I sure will pass your name along to every single person I know who is even considering purchasing a Cavalier. I am so angry right now I can barely contain myself.

Thank God we have people like Carol, Margaret, Clare and Karlin who actually give a damn about the health of our breed. Structure, markings, gait.....so incredibly less important than health. That an SM dog should actually be chosen BIS just blows me away. Really opened my eyes to shows and what they are really about. It should be a combination of health and appearance. A dog cursed with SM is not the best representation of the breed. The beauty of the dog should be more than just the outward appearance.
 
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I just finished watching the show, in its entirety, on youtube. I have to say what startled me MOST was the before and after pictures of the breeds (GSD, bassets, etc). The truth is I thought all the dogs looked better before. What has happened to many breeds is a tragedy.

I wish I could see some pictures of Cavaliers when they were first reintroduced. Does anyone have any? Have their heads/ skulls been bred smaller and smaller since then? Has SM just recently become a problem in the breed? When I was researching my first Cavalier 6 years ago, I never read anything about SM.

That poor Peke who won BIS a few years back...I remember watching that and thinking "that is NOT a dog, that is a FREAK!" I have never seen, and never hope to see, a Peke that looks like that. I am disgusted by the parade of freakish dogs and don't think I can watch another show knowing what I know now. For the same reasons so many human pagents (spelling?) have been protested and dropped, people are now seeing dog shows for what they are.
 
There are some photos here - a comparison of Cavaliers today to 30 years ago.

http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com/Head%20Shapes.htm

This page has a short list of photos at the bottom as well.

http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com/mri_comp_page.htm

Of course, back in the early 1900s King Charles Spaniels were all flat faced, but in the mid 1800s, many looked like this guy.

http://store.encore-editions.com/De...h_School-King_Charles_Spaniel_Head_Study.html

This is another page that shows lots of pictures of Toy Spaniels through a few periods. (Notice there are black masked tricolors and whole colors, as well as a black masked sable amongst these)

http://www.encore-editions.com/cavaliergifts.htm

And of course, the dog the current breed was founded on is Ann's Son. He is on this page, with his son (and I believe great grandson as well), Daywell Roger.
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GFRC&sa=N
http://www.arkwebshost.com/nonprofit/cavalierkcsuk/Cavalier_King_Charles_Spaniel_History.shtml

Arlene and her three, J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel mix, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier.:)
 
I was mistaken about Daywell Roger (should have looked, the pedigree is right there,):). Daywell Roger is grandson and great grandson to Ann's Son.

Arlene and her three, J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel mix, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier.
 
Pedigree dogs exposed

Just got back from dog school tonight and everyone there was disgusted by the issues highlighted. I believe the kennel club's reputation is in tatters and it cannot be trusted. Also I was looking through a breed book from the 1970's today and you can really see how many of the breeds have really changed including the Cavalier.
The positive from all this terrible situation, is that everyone is talking about it and if we all put pressure on KC then we could force through change. It worked in Sweden so it can here!!! My little dog already has the heart problem and she's just 2. I keep praying there's nothing else. Let's try to make change, lets try to stop this suffering.
 
Karlin said:
Oh heck, why be coy? :) It was Veronica Hull of the Southern Cavalier Club. That is a fact, and her comments are on record, and I am sure she will firmly stand by her expressed point of view.
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Yup, no doubt she will.

[edited by Admin]

I have always believed that a good breeder never actually makes any money on breeding dogs as it all gets ploughed back into them. Amazing, as I have known a guy who breeds GSD's and has had BIB at Crufts and also a 2nd etc - wins something good every year..... He was hoping one of his bitches had caught last year as his wife wanted a new kitchen.... says it all!
 
Just a reminder please to keep discussions of individuals confined to published fact. (y)

I'd prefer discussions to focus on issues rather than individuals.
 
Sure. :) I agree with your opinion but prefer for it not to be public. :lol:

Arlene once again thanks for posting such interesting links!
 
I still haven't calmed down, am so upset and saddened by this - I appreciate that the program was edited to sensationalise many aspects, but despite that, the attitude of the breeders was shocking. I didn't know about the Rhodesian Ridgebacks and am absolutely horrified.

With regard to the Cavaliers, some of you are aware that I have several SM dogs here - one is severely affected and is only still with us as I have done considerable amounts of research with the help of my wonderful vet, and we have been lucky enough to find a cocktail of drugs which control the pain and give him a wonderful quality of life - that is my lovely TedBear. I still wonder if we should have gone for surgery but it is very experimental and the results are just not good enough for me to justify putting him through that. Carol Fowler, with Rosie, on the film, did have her operated on and it's wonderful to see her looking so well.

My oldie, Rupert, now 12, also has SM, but is much more mildly affected, also has a good quality of life but we almost lost him some years back when he had an extremely bad pain episode, he was just screaming and screaming, you couldn't touch him anywhere on his body, and he couldn't even rest his head on a pillow. We went to the vets to have him PTS, but fortunately by the time we arrived he was coming out of the episode and with pain meds and about 6 months of rehabilitation {he couldn't walk very far and we were even trialing a disabled cart for some weeks with him}; he returned to his normal self and is still full of life. He still has problems with grooming, can only be walked with a harness, has his food bowl raised etc, but really we are so lucky - he is a son of Monty, Margaret Carter's dog whose photo was shown in the film. Margaret has always been incredibly supportive. She is being heavily criticised by many in the breed club, but has worked so hard to set up initiatives for testing etc, and for bringing Syringomyelia to the attention of the public.

Studies have shown that up to 90% of the Cavalier population have the malformation of the skull, although "only" up to about 50% will ever show symptoms of Syringomyelia. Sadly lots of breeders do kennel their dogs and would not therefore see many of the symptoms.


The Kennel Club have now set a scheme in place for a condition called CLAD which affects Irish Setters, so that only puppies from clear parents can be registered - it can be done, and is starting to happen in a few breeds. It's much harder with Syringomyelia, due to the amount of dogs with the malformation, but also because it's not so clear cut - what one neurologist considers to be clear, another says is mildly affected - which has caused problems for breeders.

Sadly many breeders do only care about what's winning in the ring, the glory and have no interest in the future of the breed and its health, or that probably 90% of the puppies they breed will end up in pet homes - and they are setting up those homes for considerable heartbreak, let alone the expense. They won't travel miles to health test, or to use a health tested stud dog - unless it is the current "popular sire", but will of course travel miles to attend shows....

I am probably viewed as another "health nutter" - I do now have a 1 year old Tricolour bitch - only with the help and support of Debbie k on the board - THANK YOU SO MUCH :flwr: - who was recently scanned and is one of the 10% who has a completely normal skull. I hope to breed from her in the future and hope that we can make a contribution to improving the health of this wonderful breed. Daisy has been placed at Championship shows recently, so health tested dogs CAN still win at shows...



It was very distressing the witness that poor boxer fitting - and see the distress of his guardians too.

I admire Passionate Productions and particularly their reporter, Jemima, for highlighting these issues and bringing them to the attention of the general public - hopefully now it will finally push the Kennel Club into doing SOMETHING.

The fantastic work carried out by Margaret Carter, Carol Fowler, our own Karlin, and many others has really helped to get information out to the people who NEED to know - the puppy buyers. I think this is one of the best ways we can change breeders' practises, by putting pressure on breeders to health test - hopefully then we can find more clear dogs and have more hope for the future.
 
Great to read that one little dog will at least have a normal, happy healthy life without the pain of SM. Thats just wonderful news. The best news ever.

All "Daisy" dogs are extra special and lovely!

Alison.
 
Those links were amazing Arlene! The difference in head shape is very marked.I think my Daisy is definitely the Farrah Fawcett of cavaliers...firmly stuck in 1977:p
My mother in law has a book on dog breeding from the early 1920's.
It has all the old drawings and the breed standard for King Charles spaniels.I'll read it again and see if it says anything about the health of the breed back then.
Sins
 
The key point about the lovely Daisy is that you know she is looking good because she was scanned. :) There are probably many more Daisys out there whose genes should be very important to the breed's future, but without scans, and without breeders sharing this information, they remain hidden and may never be used for their potential.
 
Here, here Nicki. It's about time someone actually thought about the puppy buyer - it's not the breeders who charge sometimes extortionate amounts for unhealthy dogs, who have to sit and watch them suffer.

Let's hope Daisy goes on to be a champ and have a couple of healthy litters to widen the healthy gene pool :)
 
i for one was deeply disturbed by this programme especially the poor ridgebacks. and the cavie that was in so much pain and when that boxer had a fit i was in tears

just wanted to say that some people have set up an informal group on Facebook, and are hoping to get the Cavvie lady (featured in the show) onside to set up petitions etc to get the KC to sit up and take notice of the public!

This is their link:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2......80412516&ref=nf

Just thought i'd let everyone know! :)
 
I have been given permission to crosspost this from another list -- the person is known to me but I have removed her name for her own privacy. She feels it is important for this to be known to help the breed and stop the deliberate breeding of affected dogs, in Lucky's name.

Subject: Re: Controversy over BBC documentary on cavaliers

Here's my 2 cents worth.
I had a beautiful dog named Lucky. He was an owner handled AKC champion
at age 18 months but even months before that he had some SM symptoms.
Lucky required SM surgery once at age 2 and PSOM surgery 3 times. Lucky
died from complicatons of his 3rd PSOM surgery but I strongly suspect
the symptoms that led to his repeat PSOM surgery were probably due to
recurrent SM. Lucky repeatedly attacked one of my other dogs so
severely and so repeatedly and without warning that I eventually had to
place him with a vet cardiology resident. He died about 6 months after
he went to live with her.

Why am I rehashing this....because Lucky's sire was the pictured BIS
winner on the documentary. That made this pretty personal to me. I
tried to contact his sire's breeder/owner by mail (I have never found an
email address for her) to let her know of Lucky's problems but NEVER
heard anything back from her. Since we live on different sides of the
Atlantic, I did not go by for a visit. I did get very gracious feedback
from his dam's owner but nothing from the sire's side. It took 2 dogs
to create Lucky. The fact that his sire has been bred so extensively is
really sad to me. I hate to think that there are other dogs out there
with Lucky's difficulties. I hope there aren't but I'll never know
because that information is not easily obtainable.

I wish first and foremost that Lucky had not had to go through all the
difficulties he went through. I wish that I could have not gone through
the heartbreak of loving him, putting him through surgery, dealing with
dog aggression in a breed that should not be aggressive, having to make
a choice of which dog to keep, having to give him away, and then having
him die. I wish that I felt I could contact a breeder and not feel
anxious about asking about health testing, including MRI's for SM. I
wish I could have another cavalier like Lucky but without SM. I don't
know if any of these wishes will ever come true.
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Review of the programme from the Independent

Last Night's TV: No prizes for the pedigree chumps
Pedigree Dogs Exposed, BBC1; Olympics 2008 BBC1

By Thomas Sutcliffe
Wednesday, 20 August 2008

Judging from last night's Pedigree Dogs Exposed, the very worst thing you can have stirred into your genetic mix – far more debilitating than a disease-bearing gene – is human self-regard and vanity. Nature, after all, has its ways of getting around defective genes, so that only the fittest survive. But nature has no answer to the inbred self-righteousness of many dog breeders, a species dedicated to the creation and maintenance of canine cartoons. If it's desirable for your particular breed cartoon to have a flat upturned nose, then that's what you'll get, even if – as in the case of many pedigree pugs – half of your soft palate is pushed down your throat as a result. And if the cartoon requires a pertly cute little skull shape, you'll get that, too, and you'll just have to put up with the fact that there's no longer quite enough room for your brain, so that you may end up in twitching agony with a disease called syringomyelia.

Jemima Harrison's powerful film began with some case studies of cavalier spaniels, which had suffered from this disease – known to be a problem for the breed – and I imagine it will have gone off like a bomb in quite a few British living rooms. I wouldn't count myself as a dog lover. In fact, I only recently qualified as a dog tolerator, after several unrewarding years of intimacy with a wire-haired fox terrier. So if this footage can make me angry, I don't like to think what it will do to viewers with a more heartfelt interest in canine welfare.

The burden of Harrison's film was simple. There are rising levels of disease and distress in pedigree breeds as humans tinker with their genetic make-up to suit their own entirely artificial notion of "breed purity". And the Kennel Club – keeper of the flame of breed type and promoter of dog-show ideals – is not doing nearly enough to prevent the pain and suffering continuing. The case of Rhodesian ridgebacks neatly exemplifies the problem. For the Kennel Club, and ridgeback breeders, the dogs' spinal ridge is "the escutcheon of the breed", an indispensable element of any prize-winning dog. In scientific terms, though, the ridge is also a marker of disease and spinal deformity, and breeding for more prominent ridges has led to an increasing number of dogs with spinal problems. Left to their own devices, the dogs would soon put this right, but ridgeback breeders take care that puppies born without a ridge don't contaminate the gene pool with their unsightly good health. This isn't always easy, given the perverse reluctance of some vets to kill healthy puppies. "We do have trouble nowadays with the young vets who tend to see everything in black and white," said one ridgeback breeder. "'It's a healthy, beautiful puppy, there's nothing wrong with it except that it hasn't got a ridge,'" she continued, parodying their woolly-minded soft-heartedness. In many cases, the disease is intimately knitted together with the characteristics that have been decreed "desirable". George the pug, a hairy collage of physical abnormalities, demonstrated the point nicely. Pugs are supposed to have tightly curled tails, but breed for that and you get twisted spines thrown into the mix for free. George's spine kinked like a crank handle, but it hadn't stopped him qualifying for Crufts, and Harrison had come up with several cases here in which breeders were knowingly breeding from dogs with serious genetic disorders, a situation that the Kennel Club appears to have done little to prevent.

Harrison's most potent evidence, though, was the contrast between Victorian specimens of various breeds, and their grotesquely exaggerated modern counterparts. The Victorian basset hound was unmistakably still a dog, sturdy and handsome. The modern show basset – draped with folds of skin and belly scraping the ground – is a sideshow freak. This was a film that should have legislative consequences, and in the meantime the BBC itself might like to reflect on how it contributes to the problem with its uncritical coverage of Crufts, the Olympics of engineered disability.
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From http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...no-prizes-for-the-pedigree-chumps-902755.html
 
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