• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

In- Breeding and CKCS.

In-Breeding and CKCS

Could I add that to-day Jemima Harrison , the Producer of the PDE TV Film, has written an open Letter to the Kennel Club,which has appeared in some News Papers and a Dog Magazine,accusing the KC of failing not doing enough for Pedigree Dogs.

She has mentioned that the KC was still allowing In-Breeding and animals continue to wither genetically

Cavliers were still mentioned by one News Paper, the Independant, as having Brains too Big for their Skulls.this News Paper also mentioned about the Independant Inquiry funded by the KC and the Dogs Trust and of the recommendations to tackle In-Breeding made

The KC has set up a Breed Information Centre on it's Web Site, but Jemima Harrison has said in her Letter ,that these Measures were inadequate and Condemned In-Breeding with Second Degree Relatives ,such as Grand -Father with Grand-Daughter or Uncle and Niece.

In Jemima Harrison's Letter ,she also accused the KC of promising to tackle Genetic Diversity ,but they are not doing enough to truly Deal with this Key Issue,

She further says ,it is time now to Properly tackle this Bigger Issue ,because until the KC does , the Dogs will continue to be INBRED into OBLIVION.

Bet
 
Bet said:
I have just noticed this Web Site which gives such an amount of Information about the Pedigrees of our Cavalier Breed, including INBREEDING.

cavalierpedigrees.com

The one thing though that struck me was ,the In-Bred information is there ,but ,and this is a big BUT,it is only through the EBV Information from Drs S.Blott and T.Lewis, who will have the knowledge of the Cavaliers' Health to Link in with the In-Bred Information that will be of any use for Cavalier Breeders for their Breeding Programs gained through the EBV Scheme.
Click to expand...
Bet I think that the EBV Program is the way to go for the Breed.
All the In-Bred information back to 1980 is included within Sarah Blott's EBV Program and I think that they already have what they need regarding this.
Health testing information is also included within Sarah Blott's EBV Program but they really do need MORE health testing results plus cheek swabs to be sent to the AHT.
Dr. Tom Lewis (Quantitative Geneticist, AHT) recently talked about the Cavalier EBV Program at a UK Cavalier Club and where he mentioned - The official BVA/KC Heart and CM/SM Schemes (SOON to be introduced) will help a great deal and hopefully speed up the flow of health data to the AHT.

In regards to the Schemes I noted that Specialists will be talking to THE PUBLIC at Crufts "Health Zone" and where even the visiting media might decide to have a chat with them, and I think that the proposed new schemes may start SOON.
I noticed the following update news at this link address.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html

UK Cavalier Club
Updated 09.03.10

CRUFTS 2010: Proposed New BVA/KC Screening Schemes CM/SM and Hearts

CM / SM
On Saturday 13th March (Toy Day) there will be a Specialist available in the ‘Kennel Club Health Zone’ for consultation on the proposed new scheme. Owners of Cavaliers and Griffon and some other toy breeds are invited to visit the Health Zone for discussion on the subject.

HEARTS
On Thursday 11th (Working and Pastoral Day) and on Saturday 13th (Toy Group Day), there will be a Specialist available in the ‘Kennel Club Health Zone’ for consultation on the progress towards setting up of a new heart screening scheme that will involve several breeds, including Cavaliers.

We hope that as many members as possible will take this opportunity to find out more about the proposed scheme procedures, costs and breeding advice.
The ‘Health Zone’ is situated in the Main Kennel Club stand in Hall 3/3A.
.
 
In-Breeding and CKCS.

Could I say that I do agree with EddyAnne, that the EBV Scheme is the only way to go to try and save our Cavalier Breed .

I have just checked on the cavalierpedigrees.com Web Site.

Our Cavalier who had Epilepsy ,had an Inbred % of around 4,now if her condition had not been known to the EBV Scheme, just think of the Health Problem this would have caused to the Scheme, she did make Crufts, and was also Best in Show at an all Breed Show, so she could maybe been considered by some Cavalier Breeders that she would be OK to have in a Cavalier Pedigree Back-ground Breeding Program.

This is why I think it's so important for the Health Status and In-Bred %'s to go Hand in Hand.

I have also checked out other Cavaliers that I know who have died from Heart Trouble ,and in quite a number of cases they also had low In-Bred %'s

Bet
 
In-Breeding and CKCS.

Could I add to my Previous Post.

I have around 35 Pedigrees of Cavaliers with SM.

I have just worked out their In-Bred Percentages,from the cavalierpedigrees.com

The %'s have sure given me food for thought.

One was 13.6% ,the other 10.3%.

The rest were all under 7%.

So maybe this shows how important it is ,for Cavalier Breeders ,for their Cavalier Breeding Programs, not just to depend on In- Bred %'s ,but it is more important to know about the Health of the Cavaliers as is given in the Information from the EBV Scheme.

Bet
 
Bet here is something to think about regarding inbreeding/diversity. Note that in this particular case low genetic diversity may help rather than hinder. An Australian icon the Tasmanian Devil and where there has been a lot of Research done and the following is from this link address.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...tinction-in-wild/story-e6frg8y6-1225839496036

The Australian
March 11, 2010
'Special' devils may save species from extinction in wild

NEW research has raised hopes for the beleaguered Tasmanian devil, finding that 20 per cent of the species have a genetic make-up that should allow them to resist the deadly devil facial tumour disease.

DFTD, a unique communicable cancer, has wiped out about 70 per cent of the carnivorous marsupial, and it is feared the species could be extinct in the wild within 25 years.

However, work by the universities of Tasmania and Sydney, released yesterday, has found that the devils' low genetic diversity may help, rather than hinder, the fight against the disease.

Scientists found about 20 per cent of devils, focused mostly in Tasmania's northwest, have only one or the other of two types of immune genes -- not a mix of both. This means their immune systems should be able to recognise DFTD cancer cells -- which have both types of the genes -- as "foreign".

These devils' natural defences should then be able to fight the disease, which in other devils would slip under the immune system's radar.

"It gives us all a little ray of hope or sunshine to keep us going," said Kathy Belov, a University of Sydney scientist and lead author of the work. "It buys us some time."

The "special" devils with the less diverse immune genes are concentrated in Tasmania's largely disease-free northwest, while the remaining 80 per cent are in the disease-ravaged east.

Most of the "special" devils in the northwest have not yet been exposed to DFTD, but there is evidence that those that have so far, have not succumbed to it.

At West Pencil Pine, west of Cradle Mountain, a research field site has recorded no noticeable change in devil numbers almost four years after DFTD arrived.

Compared with northeastern areas, where devil populations have dropped 94 per cent after the arrival of DTFD, this has stunned scientists. "It's really remarkable and it offers the first hope that we've seen that devils may not go extinct in the wild," said co-author of the new paper Menna Jones.
.
 
In-Breeding and CKCS.

EddyAnne, with the SM Cavalier Pedigrees I mentioned , does that mean that they have a Low Genetic Diversity.Is this what Dr T Lewis also mentioned about at the Recent SM Seminar ,about Cavaliers and their Genetic Diversity being not too bad.

Bet
 
Bet maybe contact Tom Lewis and ask him what he mentioned at the recent Cavalier Club Seminar, and someone mentioned he had some sort of graph and which I would like to see in case you get your hands on it.

Bet I think that Sarah Blott and Tom Lewis are keeping an eye on the inbreeding/diversity since 1980, and also keeping an eye on all the health test results they have obtained so far and what they obtain in the future. From this I think they may have a idea of what may be best for the Cavalier breed and their particular problems. Even if the genes are found for CM/SM and MVD they will still be keeping an eye on the inbreeding/diversity, for if the inherited disease genes have spread far and wide they may decide it best to "gradually breed away" this in relation to the inbreeding/diversity that presents at that particular time.

Where DNA testing is already available there are breed clubs and breeders who experienced a revelation, and here is something to think about.

Where I am we have Government Legislation and Government Codes of Practice regarding Heritable Diseases and where DNA testing is available. Where applicable Breed Clubs have already been asked to submit a Breeding Program using DNA testing to "breed away" from the Heritable Diseases, and the submitted Breeding Programs may become "Approved Breeding Programs". Think about this also regarding legalities and which involves Government "Approved Breeding Programs" and who also utilise the Veterinary Authority.

In Breeds where Heritable Disease Genes have spread far and wide even those DNA tested as Affected could be utilised, BUT breeders MUST comply to the "Approved Breeding Programs". To get some idea I have included a copy and paste of a couple of sections from the Government Codes of Practice.

Affected x Clear

1. Breeding prohibited unless as part of an approved breeding program and only with the purpose of establishing sufficient breeding stock for the breeding program to develop Clear animals.

2. The severity of the disease in progeny must be assessed by a veterinary practitioner and the animal managed in accordance with the instructions of a veterinary practitioner.

3. A diseased (Carrier and Affected) animal’s must not be disposed of to another person without advice of the animals’ heritable disease status.

4. Diseased (Carrier and Affected) animals must be de-sexed unless they are to be used in an approved breeding program, must not be permitted by their owner to suffer from their condition and must be under the supervision and monitoring of a veterinary practitioner.

6 APPROVED BREEDING PROGRAMS AND APPROVED ORGANISATIONS

6.1 Approved breeding programs must be reviewed every 3 years by the approved organisation to evaluate progress in reducing the prevalence of the heritable defect and the disease it causes and to ensure that there is compliance by its members with this Code.

6.2 A breeder must be a member of an approved organisation to undertake its approved breeding program.

6.3 Organisations should aspire to develop breeding programs that reduce the prevalence of the heritable defect in their breeding stock.

6.4 Approved Organisations.

Cats and dogs - An ‘applicable organisation’ approved by the Minister for Agriculture in accordance with the Domestic (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Act 1994.
.
 
In-Breeding and CKCS

Trying to get an answer why the SM Cavalier Pedigrees I had collected mostly had low In- Bred Percentages.

If I can find out about this, I'll let you know.

Bet
 
In-Breeding and CKCS

This might be of a wee bit of interest to some of you, this is the Reply I have been waiting for.

A Genetic Disease is caused in the Simplest case by a Faulty Copy of a Gene.

This is not Uncommon,it is ventured that all Individuals have a few Faulty Copies occuring in Various Cells at some point in our Lives .

Sometimes these Faulty Copies occur in Sex Cells (Sperm and Eggs( ,if they are involved in conception ,then they act as the blurprint for one Copy of that Gene throughout all Cells in that Foetus and then the Animal.

( I now understand the Importance of the Foetal Tissue Research ,sorry I was wrong in my Comments about it)

To carry on with the Reply.

This may not be a Problem if the Gene in the Other Cell involved in Conception is a Normal Healthy Gene,(But the Animal is a Carrier Despite appearing out-wardly Healthy)

However ,if both Inherited Copies are Faulty ,then the Individual will Express Disease .

High Levels of In-Breeding (When Parents have Common Ancestors )make it much more likely that Animals will Inherit TWO COPIES of Faulty Genes ,One From Either Parent .

Highly In-Bred Individuals are likely to have a Higher Proportion of Genes where Both Copies are from the Same Ancestral Source .

The GENETIC DIVERSITY or VARIATION is IMPORTANT as this Helps tell us how Succesfull Selection will be .

For Example say for Disease X all Animals have TWO COPIES of the Affected Gene ,ie . all Animals are Affected .

There is no Variation at that Gene .

If however ,there were 6 Varients of the Gene ,only One is Disease Causing and this was at a Frequency of 5% ,then the Genetic Diversity is Higher and we have many more Animals from which we can Breed from in the hope of Reducing the Frequency of the Disease Causing Varient.

So In-Breeding may Explain how a Genetic Disease is Spread throughout a Breed ,but it is not much help in finding a Solution.

I hope this Reply has given as much Interest to others as it has to me.

Bet
 
In- Breeding and CKCS

Just another wee update from Professor D Balding ,Institute of Genetics, University College,London, this time.

He starts off by saying that the cause of SM is unknown .

That although it can be said that In-Breeding is bad for Health and Genetic Diversity is good ,it does'nt apply the same way to all Diseases and can't explain Disease in Particular Dogs .

That there are different Genetic Mechanisms that cause Different Diseases ,and he thinks the Mechanism is unknown for SM .

He also mentioned that ,in general Genetic Diversity applies to the Breed as a whole ,not particular Dogs. So I would think that with this comment and what was said before, the Cavaliers from 1980 , on the whole, have quite a bit of Genetic Diversity.

I would think that from this Reply ,it must be evident how important it is for the SM Gene/Genes in the Cavalier Breed to be found, and all help be given to the Researchers in carrying out their Research for this.

I don't think that any-body can deny that both for the SM and MVD Cavalier Problems, those Faulty Genes have got to be found ,to give the Cavalier Breed a chance of Survival.

Bet
 
Thanks for sharing this informaiton Bet - it is really helpful.

EddyAnne - I was fascinated to read about the Tasmanian Devils - we knew that there were huge problems for them, but this does give hope.
 
IN-BREEDING and CKCS

Nicki said:
Thanks for sharing this informaiton Bet - it is really helpful.

EddyAnne - I was fascinated to read about the Tasmanian Devils - we knew that there were huge problems for them, but this does give hope.
Click to expand...



IN-BREEDING and CKCS.

Could I add this further thought about In-Breeding in our Cavalier Breed as a result of the information concerning the Search for the Post of the Founding Chairman for the UK Independant Advisory Council on Dog Welfare .

This Independant Advisory Council was first mentioned by Professor Sir P.Batesonin his Report published in January 2010,when he also said that Breeding Grand-Mother to Grand-Son and Grand-Father to Grand-Daughter ,was IN-Breeding to a Marked Extent, Page 15.

Since Professor Sir P.Bateson is Emeritus Professor of Ethology at Cambridge University and is President of the Zoological Society of London, I think his Credentials speak for themselves.

It is a fact that a number of Cavalier Breeders have claimed that they have been Breeding Cavaliers for over 25-30 years and have always carried out this Policy for Breeding Cavaliers, mating Grand-Mother to Grand-Son and Grand- Father to Grand -Daughter,but in view of Professor Sir P. Bateson's Statement,should the question now be being asked ,were those Cavalier Breeders wrong in believing that this type of Breeding is not In-Breeding.

Will there be Recommendations that might come from the Independant Advisory Council about this ,and maybe could give our Cavaliers the better chance of a Healthier Future.

This Type of In-Breeding has been carried out when Cavalier Pedigrees are traced back to the Cavalier Breed being Establishedat least 70 years ago by Cavalier Breeders.

Bet
 
Bet. Thanks for posting the pic of the Suntops. I've often wondered what they would have looked like.:)
 
Bet said:
This Independant Advisory Council was first mentioned by Professor Sir P.Batesonin his Report published in January 2010,
Click to expand...
Bet I’ll add a wee bit of information.

The APGAW Inquiry Report published in November 2009 mentioned an "Independent Advisory Body".

The Bateson Inquiry Report published in January 2010 mentioned an "Independent Advisory Council".

Both of the Inquiry Reports use slightly different names for this "independent advisory group" and both Reports recommend basically the same things in what this group comprises of and what it should do.
.
 
IN-BREEDING and CKCS

Bet said:
IN-BREEDING and CKCS.

Could I add this further thought about In-Breeding in our Cavalier Breed as a result of the information concerning the Search for the Post of the Founding Chairman for the UK Independant Advisory Council on Dog Welfare .

This Independant Advisory Council was first mentioned by Professor Sir P.Batesonin his Report published in January 2010,when he also said that Breeding Grand-Mother to Grand-Son and Grand-Father to Grand-Daughter ,was IN-Breeding to a Marked Extent, Page 15.

Since Professor Sir P.Bateson is Emeritus Professor of Ethology at Cambridge University and is President of the Zoological Society of London, I think his Credentials speak for themselves.

It is a fact that a number of Cavalier Breeders have claimed that they have been Breeding Cavaliers for over 25-30 years and have always carried out this Policy for Breeding Cavaliers, mating Grand-Mother to Grand-Son and Grand- Father to Grand -Daughter,but in view of Professor Sir P. Bateson's Statement,should the question now be being asked ,were those Cavalier Breeders wrong in believing that this type of Breeding is not In-Breeding.

Will there be Recommendations that might come from the Independant Advisory Council about this ,and maybe could give our Cavaliers the better chance of a Healthier Future.

This Type of In-Breeding has been carried out when Cavalier Pedigrees are traced back to the Cavalier Breed being Establishedat least 70 years ago by Cavalier Breeders.

Bet
Click to expand...

IN-BREEDING and CKCS


I hope it's still OK to mention again the subject of IN-BREEDING and how it could involve our Cavalier Breed.

Cavalier Breeders look to enhance the Breed , improve the quality ,this means ,Physical ,Mental and Conformance to the Breed Standard.

This takes time ,and some-times requires decisions to be made regarding the Acceptable level of IN-BREEDING

By Mating a Cavalier to one of it's Relatives certain Features are being tried to Enhance a Trait of that Line

Usually this means out-wardly Visible Signs like Bone Structure ,Ear Positioning, or Physical Size.

What cannot be seen are the Internal Traits ,like Immunodeficiency etc, by the time those Health Problems appear ,it is too late.

There are certain combinations of Genes that to-gether cause Problems and IN-BREEDING Reinforces and Magnifies these Adverse effects since they have a Stronger Presence.

The Problem arises when TWO OFF-SPRING with COMMON ANCESTORS both have a COMMON DESCENDANT ,maybe following a Mating between Cavaliers who Share a Common Sire.

The Gene contributed by the SIRE ,the Probability that IDENTICAL COPIES of the Same Gene will be passed on to BOTH OFF-SPRING is 50%,since there is only a Choice of Two.

Similarly ,the Probability that the OFF-SPRING from a Mating between these TWO Siblings will receive Identical Copies of the Gene from each Parent is also 50%,making the Overall Probability of a Cavalier having TWO Identical GENES 25% ,that is 50% of 50% .

In this example the INBREEDING CO-EFFICIENT is 25%.

This information is fine ,but the Problem for Cavaliers ,is we know that the Inbreeding of many Cavalier Ancestors is HIGH and this is so Important when working out In-Breeding Co-Efficients.

What this means ,is that when Breeding Cavaliers ,Breeders should be looking for Few or No Ancestors appearing in the Pedigrees of Cavaliers who are to be Mated.

This is all about Reinforcing Defects over Several Genreations ,and how much Cavalier Breeders are willing to accept in weighing up the ODDS.

Bet
 
In-Breeding and CKCS

Bet said:
IN-BREEDING and CKCS


I hope it's still OK to mention again the subject of IN-BREEDING and how it could involve our Cavalier Breed.

Cavalier Breeders look to enhance the Breed , improve the quality ,this means ,Physical ,Mental and Conformance to the Breed Standard.

This takes time ,and some-times requires decisions to be made regarding the Acceptable level of IN-BREEDING

By Mating a Cavalier to one of it's Relatives certain Features are being tried to Enhance a Trait of that Line

Usually this means out-wardly Visible Signs like Bone Structure ,Ear Positioning, or Physical Size.

What cannot be seen are the Internal Traits ,like Immunodeficiency etc, by the time those Health Problems appear ,it is too late.

There are certain combinations of Genes that to-gether cause Problems and IN-BREEDING Reinforces and Magnifies these Adverse effects since they have a Stronger Presence.

The Problem arises when TWO OFF-SPRING with COMMON ANCESTORS both have a COMMON DESCENDANT ,maybe following a Mating between Cavaliers who Share a Common Sire.

The Gene contributed by the SIRE ,the Probability that IDENTICAL COPIES of the Same Gene will be passed on to BOTH OFF-SPRING is 50%,since there is only a Choice of Two.

Similarly ,the Probability that the OFF-SPRING from a Mating between these TWO Siblings will receive Identical Copies of the Gene from each Parent is also 50%,making the Overall Probability of a Cavalier having TWO Identical GENES 25% ,that is 50% of 50% .

In this example the INBREEDING CO-EFFICIENT is 25%.

This information is fine ,but the Problem for Cavaliers ,is we know that the Inbreeding of many Cavalier Ancestors is HIGH and this is so Important when working out In-Breeding Co-Efficients.

What this means ,is that when Breeding Cavaliers ,Breeders should be looking for Few or No Ancestors appearing in the Pedigrees of Cavaliers who are to be Mated.

This is all about Reinforcing Defects over Several Genreations ,and how much Cavalier Breeders are willing to accept in weighing up the ODDS.

Bet
Click to expand...



I forgot to say what I mentioned this morning about IN -Breeding was from a Paper on In- Breeding Explained

Just passing onto those who might be interested this Information,also maybe I was not explicit enough in saying ,that Breeders should be reminded what they should be looking for , is No Same Ancestors appearing in the Pedigrees of the TWO Cavaliers who are to be being Mated.

Sorry if I did not make this clear.

Bet
 
IN-BREEDING and CKCS

Bet said:
I forgot to say what I mentioned this morning about IN -Breeding was from a Paper on In- Breeding Explained

Just passing onto those who might be interested this Information,also maybe I was not explicit enough in saying ,that Breeders should be reminded what they should be looking for , is No Same Ancestors appearing in the Pedigrees of the TWO Cavaliers who are to be being Mated.

Sorry if I did not make this clear.

Bet
Click to expand...


IN-BREEDING and CKCS


Could I just mention that there is a Survey taking place in Australia at the moment on the IN-Breeding Problem in Pedigree Dogs.

I contacted those involved in this Research explaining that the Cavaliers in Australia would probably have been exported from Britain in the early days ,and presumeably will have many of the same Genes and had had the In-Bred Back-grounds

Also that the 6 Founders of the Cavalier Breed ,themselves ,were closely In-Bred.

That in the 1930's Mother was mated to Son , Father to Daughter , and unfortunately the 2nd World War came just about 5 years later when this type of Breeding was being carried out to get the Cavalier Breed established ,and these Breeding Programs had to be still carried out.

Also that Mrs A. Pitt,the Founder of the Cavalier Breed had mentioned in 1957, that no thought had been given by the Breeders as to the Future of the Cavaliers by the In-Breeding.

I have just received an E-Mail ,thanking me for this information , that it will be of interest .

Bet
 
In- Breeding and CKCS

Bet said:
I forgot to say what I mentioned this morning about IN -Breeding was from a Paper on In- Breeding Explained

Just passing onto those who might be interested this Information,also maybe I was not explicit enough in saying ,that Breeders should be reminded what they should be looking for , is No Same Ancestors appearing in the Pedigrees of the TWO Cavaliers who are to be being Mated.

Sorry if I did not make this clear.

Bet
Click to expand...

IN-BREEDING and CKCS

Just to apologise again for my mistake, I have a wee Problem, I am an Epileptic , some-times get a bit confused when I'm Typing my Posts.

Bet
 
That's OK Bet, many of us are aware of this and I know you generally take the time to post a correction if you realise there's been an accidental error. :) Thanks for the many pieces of information too!
 
Bet said:
... Cavalier Breeders look to enhance the Breed , improve the quality ,this means ,Physical ,Mental and Conformance to the Breed Standard.

This takes time ,and some-times requires decisions to be made regarding the Acceptable level of IN-BREEDING

By Mating a Cavalier to one of it's Relatives certain Features are being tried to Enhance a Trait of that Line

Usually this means out-wardly Visible Signs like Bone Structure ,Ear Positioning, or Physical Size.

What cannot be seen are the Internal Traits ,like Immunodeficiency etc, by the time those Health Problems appear ,it is too late. ...
Click to expand...

I think that some Cavalier breeders mate close relatives, not just for externally visible physical traits, but also for those less visible internal traits, particularly such as temperament and even genetic health (such as, an older sire with a healthy heart). So, I do not agree that the rule should be to never breed Cavaliers with ancestors in common within the most recent generations.

When you criticize breeders solely because they may line-breed or select mates with recent common ancestors, I think you may not be giving some of them credit for actually giving a lot of thought to their selections and trying to improve their bloodlines.

Bet said:
... Also that Mrs A. Pitt,the Founder of the Cavalier Breed had mentioned in 1957, that no thought had been given by the Breeders as to the Future of the Cavaliers by the In-Breeding. ...
Click to expand...

As for Mrs. Pitt's quote, I see a lot of Cavalier breeders not giving thought as to the future of the breed, but line-breeding per se should not be universally condemned.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top