• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Meltdown!

I have similar costs in rescue, Sandy. As with remaining quiet on health issues so as not to embarrass/annoy the clubs/breeders/national organisations, I don't think it helps rescue efforts to hide away the facts of how club-raised funds -- donated in good faith by many club and non-club people -- are NOT spent on rescue by several club rescue groups. It is ironic to me that close to $100,000 is sitting in some rescue accounts -- what are they doing with this money? What do they intend to do with it? All I am saying is a lot of people see rescue as sacrosact and do not ask how much cash is there or require an explanation of how it is being spent. They need to start asking for total transparency from club rescue groups.

Given the example that I noted earlier -- that a single pet owner donated the funds to scan 19 cavaliers while the club paid for three... and as many many more are needed (see the request on the UK CKCS Club site which is an international request, not just for UK dogs), and given that one of the US clubs has turned down proposals in the past to fund a large scale scanning research effort...one has to wonder where priorities lie and how money is being used, and whether if so much is raised towards 'rescue' work that isn;t being done -- or at least the funds intended for it are not being drawn down -- perhaps it is time to refocus effort on saving the breed as well as giving individual dogs a better life.

Not least because rescue and health issues with SM are going to be more and more intertwined. You, me and others in club or breed rescue are increasingly going to be trying to find homes for cavaliers with SM that will be a lot harder to place, and a much greater financial burden, than CKCS with MVD. They may not be placeable and treatment and diagnosis for a single dog will be beyond what rescue can handle, raising the issue of having to pts dogs or else, club and rescue members taking personal responsibility for them. SM is going to build to a serious crisis in rescue. Addressing the health issues therefore has got to be a funding priority within the clubs, for this and many other reasons.

If this is true, it is news to me. (IF we have mega bucks in our rescue fund, someone please tell me). I am really getting tired of begging vets to give discounts, begging people to drive an hour or two one way etc... to get dogs to vets that are rescue friendly. I've never been told that any of our rescues has been turned down for help.
I've never been quiet about SM. I usually tick people off by talking about SM, my experiences with SM in dogs, My MRI's etc... I wouldn't have done 5 MRI's if I didn't want to do 'my' bit and I was thrilled when two people who have my pups also did MRI's to continue a long line of MRI clear dogs.

The cost of 19 Mri's here would be 21,000- 30,000 USD-- a bit much to ask for IMO.
 
Well, against my better judgement, I’ve decided to come out of hibernation and have a good old-fashioned meltdown.

What on earth makes some of you think that it’s only up to the breeders to solve the Cavaliers problems?! Because that’s what I’m hearing here and elsewhere. In my opinion the solution is in research. And research costs money. Lots of money. How about instead of telling we breeders it’s all up to us, you pet people (I hate that phrase, there has to be a better one)also take a little responsibility for the breed that you love so much. Take what you would spend to go out to eat for a month and donate it to research. Do that every year. A couple years ago I spearheaded a fundraiser for a specific research project on two of the Cavalier forums and a lot of people donated; to those people, I can’t express in words how much I appreciated it. But what was notable was how many people in the combined membership didn’t donate.

I know this is a little disjointed, but I wanted to say something before I changed my mind and didn’t say anything. PLEASE try to bury the hatchet and help us breeders solve the health problems. Just pointing the finger at us will solve very little. It’s everyone’s responsibility, breeders can’t do it alone, there's too few of us and too little money.

Having a few days away I have been catching up with some of the posts. This one certainly caught my eye and made me angry to say the least.
Yes research is important and yes if people ARE able to contribute not only in monetary terms but also supplying blood samples, swabs etc that in a ideal world would be wonderful.
I for one am tired of people saying it's in the hands of the general puppy buying public to contribute, on this forum alone there are many members who do contribute and I am livid that you come on this forum telling us what to do.
Perhaps your energies would be better spent telling the breeders who will not be partcipating in the EBV scheme, who refuse to follow the Cavalier Club guidelines, who do not supply blood samples, swabs etc and most importantly refuse to accept that SM is a problem in the breed that this is unacceptable and they must do it your way.

How I choose to help research is my business and I certainly do not like someone spouting that this is how I should spend my money.:swear:


Nanette
 
I for one am tired of people saying it's in the hands of the general puppy buying public to contribute, on this forum alone there are many members who do contribute and I am livid that you come on this forum telling us what to do.
Perhaps your energies would be better spent telling the breeders who will not be partcipating in the EBV scheme, who refuse to follow the Cavalier Club guidelines, who do not supply blood samples, swabs etc and most importantly refuse to accept that SM is a problem in the breed that this is unacceptable and they must do it your way.

How I choose to help research is my business and I certainly do not like someone spouting that this is how I should spend my money.:swear:


Nanette

well said Nanette, Why dont you do that Bruce?
 
Folks, we are all in this together -- there are good breeders and bad breeders, good "show" people and bad ones, good "pet" people and bad ones. We speak too often in generalizations and then others take offense even when we may not be speaking about them personally. The job of protecting this breed and improving its health is the responsibility of everyone -- breeders, show people and pet owners. Our roles are different, although there is clearly some overlap.

Breeders have the responsibility to constantly study and learn and to breed responsibly and ethically with the best interest of their bitch and the breed in mind and not just to make puppies. Unfortunately, if the tests necessary to make certain the puppies they breed have the best chance of being healthy are too expensive then perhaps they need to more selective about how often they breed while working to have the tests made more affordable. They also IMHO have the responsiblity of putting pressure on their fellow breeders to do likewise.

Show people have the responsibility to put the health of their individual dogs and the health of the breed before their own interests in winning and to refuse to work with (or be) breeders who do not have as their goal the sound improvement of the breed. If they have a dog at stud they have the responsiblity and obligation of full disclosure.

Pet owners have the responsibility to educate themselves before they buy and to refuse to purchase puppies from breeders who are not breeding responsibly and ethically. If it means they have to wait either until they have saved enough money or until a puppy from a responsible, ethical breeder is available, so be it.

Everyone -- breeders,show people, pet owners -- have the obligation to to educate the public -- all those people who stop them at dog shows, training classes, in park, at PetSmart or wherever, and say they want a dog just like that -- about the breed, the health concerns and the need to be careful before they buy or adopt. Yes, at times it seems like crying in the wind, but if enough people say it enough times it may start to make a difference.

Everyone -- breeders, show people, pet owners -- have the obligation to the extent they can to contribute to research efforts by donating DNA and/or making a monetary contribution whether it be $10.00 or $1000.00.

It all has to work together -- research, responsible breeding, educated purchases, committment by everyone to the breed. Pointing fingers and pitting breeders against pet owners will accomplish nothing.

JMHO
 
Last edited:
Amen Phyllis!!! I couldn't have said it any better.

I think Bruce just gave us his perspective as a breeder and I respect his input and opinions.
 
Perhaps your energies would be better spent telling the breeders who will not be partcipating in the EBV scheme, who refuse to follow the Cavalier Club guidelines, who do not supply blood samples, swabs etc and most importantly refuse to accept that SM is a problem in the breed that this is unacceptable and they must do it your way.


Nanette

Nanette. I would like to find out who these breeders are and avoid them? How did you go about finding them? How do we find out who is blood testing, swabbing, refusing to accept SM is a problem, will not be participating in the EBV scheme? Honeymonster
 
Hi

Please search for your new Cavalier through the clubs and contacts from the breeders that you ask ,and then when you find the pup that you want prior to seeing it ask the breeder if its parents have a current heart certificate (Mum has had one done within the last 12 months and its clear regardless of her age and Dad also has a recent one showing he has no murmur if under 5 and only mild if over) and clear eye certificate also a recent MRI certificate with both parents declared Grade A.It sounds a hard task but there are puppies out there that meet those demands though not many and of course by asking these questions you are telling all the people you contact that these are the standards required and if not met you walk away and so by insisting on this to the breeding community that this is what us the pet owning people now require it will further encourage and pressure them into having all these ever so necessary tests done and of course help them in selling any pups. It is time consuming and could involve many phone calls and emails and when you eventually do find your pup possibly a journey of many miles and/or a wait of many months but it is the best way forward for us members of the pet community to help all our Cavaliers live longer ,happier and healthier lives.:) So please dont go out and buy the first puppy you find pls do your research and insist that these are the minimum recommendations that need to be met before you commit to your precious purchase.:)
 
Thank you Brian. I will take on board what you say. It just seems that if there are breeders who fall into the category that Nanette describes it would save some emails, phonecalls etc if these people could be avoided.From Nanette's post I read that these types were known. That is why I asked how do you avoid them?
 
Nanette. I would like to find out who these breeders are and avoid them? How did you go about finding them? How do we find out who is blood testing, swabbing, refusing to accept SM is a problem, will not be participating in the EBV scheme? Honeymonster

Hello honeymonster.

My first port of call would be to speak to Margaret C, a member of this forum. She would be able to give you a list of Breeders who do follow the
Cavalier Clubs Guidelines and who do scan etc their breeding stock.
It would not be my intention to name or shame but hope that by following
Margaret C and Brian's advice you will be able to find a Cavalier that comes from responsible breeders.

I would just like to comment on the posts above Brian's. I whole heartedly agree with everything that Phyllis has written, and would not wish to be known as a them and us person. In an ideal world it would be so good to see breeders and pet owners unite but this never happened with the MVD problems in the breed which has now reached epidemic proportions and my own personal feelings are that SM will also affect as many Cavaliers as does MVD now.

I am listening if anyone can tell me how as pet owners we can turn the tables and unite with breeders.

Nanette
 
Meltdown.

Hollydolly,

I am wondering how to answer your Post ,it would be great as the saying goes if,us Cavalier Pet Folk could Sing from the Same Hymn Sheet as all the Cavalier Breeders, but here's the Rub, many of us have been mocked in the Past by some Cavalier Breeders, do we Forgive and Forget,especially when we have seen our Cherished Cavaliers die at an early age from MVD, and now the Suffering from SM, I just dont know.

If we could believe that all Cavalier Breeders were being Honest and Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding ,then we all might move forward to-gether,but until we have evidence of that, then it might still be a situation of us Cavalier Pet Owners not trusting all Cavalier Breeders.

Bet( Hargreaves)
 
If we could believe that all Cavalier Breeders were being Honest and Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding ,then we all might move forward to-gether,but until we have evidence of that, then it might still be a situation of us Cavalier Pet Owners not trusting all Cavalier Breeders.

I have to admit....I take offense at this statement. Do not lump me, as a pet owner, into this statement. You cannot paint all breeders with one nasty paint brush. There are many great, wonderful and caring breeders out there whom you've have just made out to be evil because they are breeders. This is why breeder and "pet people" are having issues. It is not "us" against "them" and until we all "get" that this is a lose/lose situation for everyone. Must you continue to fuel the fire with this kind of statement??
 
Thank you Cathy T., for speaking on behalf of breeders here. I really dislike the "breeder bashing" that seems to be so popular these days. It truly gets us no where as far as promoting cavalier health. In fact, it's sort of shooting ourselves in the foot if we want to work with breeders to improve the state of the breed. If all breeders were as caring and meticulous in their breeding programs as those like Sandy and Bruce, then the US would be in a great place as far as providing healthy puppies for pet owners.

I've said it before, but I'm afraid that the good breeders may decide to throw in the towel if the wave of anti-breeder sentiment sweeps across the US. This is something I've heard from Holly's breeder (who personally facilitated and funded all health testing on Holly's parents that everyone here demands). Then we'll just have commercial operations and BYB's providing puppies -- because they never did give a rat's behind what anyone thinks of them.

And here's another thought -- if we're to doubt all breeder's programs, and US cavalier rescue is engaging in corrupt business practices, then where should we get our dogs? It's very easy and enticing to get wrapped up in a conspiracy sort of mentality, but it also pushes reasonable people out of the equation.
 
Meltdown

Sorry if I have upset some Cavalier Breeders, but I am talking about some Cavalier Breeders here in Britain.

I don't know if there are Breed Supplements in America, but we do have them in Britain ,they are issued by the Kennel Club of all the Cavalier Registrations.

There are some Cavalier Breeders who are not abiding by the UK CKCS CLUB Breeding Guidelines for MVD.

Not waiting till the Cavaliers are 2.6 years of before Breeding from them.

Until this happens then what I Posted is what I mean .

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
I think a meticulous breeding programme is one that has to include MRI scanning -- or people should not be in the breed. If anyone is buying puppies, do NOT assume anyone has a meticulous health focused breeding programme unless you SEE the MRI scan results and the cardiologist certs and KNOW the breeder is doing both.

If they aren't scanning, then breeders have NO idea what the state of their dogs is and are simply breeding blind. Given how long it can take symptoms to begin to show, and given how few owners are willing to go back and tell their breeder or the person they bought their dog from that it has SM (I survey people on this and it is a tiny, tiny fraction especially if the breeder is nice and people don't want to 'disappoint' them), and given that vets will not do so as it is not their role to report back the health status to breeders, it is an utter nonsense for any breeder to say their lines have no SM because they have never heard of an affected dog.

At any rate I know of breeders who have posted this publicly for years and where I KNOW pet owners who have written to them about affected dogs of their breeding -- some of these people simply lie -- which in turn causes all the rest to come under criticism. Breeders should not be blaming pet owners' frustration on 'breeder bashing' but their own colleagues who have openly lied and whom pet owners know have lied; who deny SM in their lines, who deny SM is a problem... STILL... and who *don't MRI their own dogs, in some cases, not a SINGLE dog yet continue to breed. For that matter no group 'breeder bashes' more than breeders themselves -- just listen in on the L-list for any length of time and read the archives for proof or get involved in showing yourself. So I for one am really tired of this artificial division being drawn up, which is just a diversion away from the actual issues of SERIOUS HEALTH PROBLEMS, AND WHETHER PEOPLE SCAN AND SUPPORT RESEARCH. Pretending like the 'problem' is pet owners making breeders feel bad -- pet owners who have so little influence over breeding programmes!! -- is just ridiculous. The health focused breeders I talk to have few issues with pet owners, & welcome the scrutiny of their programmes. But they have MAJOR issues with the route their clubs take, many of the breeders, especially the big names, in their clubs, the attacks on researchers, the behind the scenes bitching amongst breeders, the omerta which covers up what is really going on with some affected dogs being used -- STILL! -- in breeding programmes and shown in the ring, the refusal to share scan results or support a health registry to make it easier for scanning breeders to find each other.

Yes, of course pet owners and breeders need to be working together -- but so far I see a lot of distraught pet owners, a tiny group of scanning breeders who also work openly with other breeders on these genetic issues, and the vast majority of club breeders who either don't scan, or do scan and hide the results except amongst a small group (including top club officials who state they do this as if it is a badge of honour not to let anyone know whether they have dogs that could be helpful to saving this breed :sl*p:. How strangely twisted is the logic of that? Or is it just about holding down little sad fiefdoms of power while the breed gets worse and worse?). Well-- that will help keep many scanning breeders -- who generally include the smaller breeders not in their inner circles -- of finding A dogs for their breeding programme. I do not know a SINGLE scanning breeder who finds it easy to find dogs to use BECAUSE OTHER BREEDERS DO NOT TALK ABOUT THEIR RESULTS, EVEN FOR GOOD DOGS, which means good genes are being lost, despite some prominent breeders constantly complaining that the grading system means genes will be lost. The same women who scan and hide their results, directly contributing to the loss of their lines' good genes! Not a single breeder can honestly deny that everything I have said is true. I know enough breeders to know what the situation is. Not everyone follows the vow of silence at least privately.

Breeders, it is YOU who need to work TOGETHER, for the breed's sake! It is time to stop using whatever pet owners say as an excuse to do nothing or become indignant over your own guilt for not scanning but still wanting to breed and finding the excuses to yourself for doing so (thus do good breeders go bad. Good intentions are not enough!). Start scanning, work towards cheaper scanning programmes in your region of the world if you don't have them (how is it that the UK can have many and the US almost none? Stop complaining and get out there and work to change this!!), support research, scan older dogs which are now the critical dogs for understanding progression and finding clearer lines.

To argue that you cannot scan because you cannot afford to even though you do 'believe' in scanning means one thing: you are risking the health of every puppy you breed and the breed's overall health as you may be selecting all the dogs most prone to syrinxes for your breeding programme, with no awareness that you are doing so. You are breeding blind and the fact that cost is an impediment cannot be an excuse to go on breeding any old way you want in willful ignorance of your lines' health. How risky is this? Very! Talk to your own fellow breeders who have scanned and I doubt you will find one who wasn't taken aback -- if not outright shocked -- at some of their results on some of the key dogs in their programmes.

If you aren't scanning, you are breeding blind for a widespread, devastating, painful condition which will cost your puppy buyers in the majority of cases, thousands over the dogs' lifetimes to diagnose and treat, even if the most conservative approach is taken. How is this excuse of cost any different from the willful disregard of breeding for health that you accuse the puppy mills and BYBs of doing? Who are you kidding?

I'd ask those breeders internationally who are complaining about pet owners: what right have YOU to make these criticisms? Do YOU scan? Do you make your results known to your fellow breeders outside your group of friends? Do you support research? Have you sent swabs and scans and cardio certs to researchers? If not, what grounds do you have to criticise pet owners?
 
I think a meticulous breeding programme is one that has to include MRI scanning -- or people should not be in the breed. If you are buying puppies, do NOT assume anyone has a meticulous health focused breeding programme unless you SEE the scans and the cardiologist certs and KNOW they are doing both.

If they aren't scanning, then breeders have NO idea what the state of their dogs is and are simply breeding blind. Given how long it can take symptoms to begin to show, and given how few owners are willing to go back and tell their breeder or the person they nought their dog from that it has SM (I survey people on this and it is a tiny, tiny fraction especially if the breeder is nice and people don;t want to 'disappoint' them), and given that vets will not do so as it is not their role to report back the health status to breeders, it is an utter nonsense for any breeder to say their lines have no SM because they have never heard of an affected dog.

At any rate I know of breeders who have posted this publicly for years and where I KNOW pet owners who have written to them about affected dogs of their breeding -- some of these people simply lie -- which in turn causes all the rest to come under criticism. Breeders should not be blaming pet owners' frustration on 'breeder bashing' but their own colleagues who have openly lied and whom pet owners know have lied; who deny SM in their lines, who deny SM is a problem... STILL... and who *don't MRI their own dogs, in some cases, not a SINGLE dog yet continue to breed. For that matter no group 'breeder bashes' more than breeders themselves -- just listen in on the L-list for any length of time and read the archives for proof or get involved in showing yourself. So I for one am really tired of this artificial division being drawn up, which is just a diversion away from the actual issues of WHETHER PEOPLE SCAN AND SUPPORT RESEARCH. Pretending like the 'problem' is pet owners making breeders feel bad -- pet owners who have so little influence over breeding programmes -- is just ridiculous. The health focused breeders I talk to have few issues with pet owners, & welcome the scrutiny of their programmes. But they have MAJOR issues with the route their clubs take, many of the breeders, especially the big names, in their clubs, the attacks on researchers, the behind the scenes bitching amongst breeders, the omerta which covers up what is really going on with some affected dogs being used -- STILL! -- in breeding programmes and shown in the ring, the refusal to share scan results or support a health registry to make it easier for scanning breeders to find each other.

Yes, of course pet owners and breeders need to be working together -- but so far I see a lot of distraught pet owners, a tiny group of scanning breeders who also work openly with other breeders on these genetic issues, and the vast majority of club breeders who either don't scan, do scan and hide the results except amongst a small group. Well-- that will help keep many scanning breeders -- who generally include the smaller breeders not in their inner circles -- of finding A dogs for their breeding programme. I do not know a SINGLE scanning breeder who finds it easy to find dogs to use BECAUSE OTHER BREEDERS DO NOT TALK ABOUT THEIR RESULTS, EVEN FOR GOOD DOGS, which means good genes are being lost, despite some prominent breeders constantly complaining that the grading system means genes will be lost. The same women who scan and hide their results, directly contributing to the loss of their lines' good genes! Not a single breeder can honestly deny that everything I have said is true. I know enough breeders to know what the situation is. Not everyone follows the vow of silence at least privately.

Breeders, it is YOU who need to work TOGETHER, for the breed's sake! It is time to stop using whatever pet owners say as an excuse to do nothing or become indignant over your own guilt for not scanning but still wanting to breed and finding the excuses to yourself for doing so (thus do good breeders go bad. Good intentions are not enough!). Start scanning, work towards cheaper scanning programmes in your region of the world if you don't have them (how is it that the UK can have many and the US almost none? Stop complaining and get out there and work to change this!!), support research, scan older dogs which are now the critical dogs for understanding progression and finding clearer lines.

To argue that you cannot scan because you cannot afford to even though you do 'believe' in scanning means one thing: you are risking the health of every puppy you breed and the breed's overall health as you may be selecting all the dogs most prone to syrinxes for your breeding programme, with no awareness that you are doing so. You are breeding blind and the fact that cost is an impediment cannot be an excuse to go on breeding any old way you want in willful ignorance of your lines' health. How risky is this? Very! Talk to your own fellow breeders who have scanned and I doubt you will find one who wasn't taken aback -- if not outright shocked -- at some of their results on some of the key dogs in their programmes.

If you aren't scanning, you are breeding blind for a widespread, devastating, painful condition which will cost your puppy buyers in the majority of cases, thousands over the dogs' lifetimes to diagnose and treat, even if the most conservative approach is taken.

I'd ask those breeders internationally who are complaining about pet owners: what right have you to make these criticisms? Do YOU scan? Do you make your results known to your fellow breeders outside your group of friends? Do you support research? Have you sent swabs and scans and cardio certs to researchers? If not, what grounds do you have to criticise pet owners who wonder why not?
cl*pNanette
 
Meltdown.

Thank you Karlin for your Post, you have put in a Nut Shell what so many of the Frustations we Cavalier Pet Owners are feeling to-day.

There was a recent News Letter from the UK CKCS CLUB, I think this says it all!!!!

There were 1,000 Swabs given out to Club Members, how many ,according to the News Letter have been Returned ,approx 250.I think that is in over a year.

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
Likewise due to internal politicking and begrudgery very few breeders who gave CKCS DNA samples followed through with also sending heart certs (maybe they didn't have them but I doubt it, if they had MRI scanned). Because not enough were returned, the current genome scan project had to drop the intention to also have the genetic basis and genetic test for MVD, something clubs and breeders said they wanted for a decade plus. Do they?

I salute every health project that clubs and breeders undertake but this was a major, major initiative and has now delayed the possibility of such analysis by years and years. Years more of early dog deaths, years more of suffering dogs, years more of breeding guesswork, all because people -- breeders,not pet owners -- decided not to be part of a critical health initiative.

So in the end personality clashes, petty infighting, and begrudgery were more important than the breed. I bet many breeders never even knew there were requests out for this information because in the end it was so hard to get the clubs themselves internationally to push for this effort, make breeders aware, and get something as simple as cardiologist certs turned in to produce what would have been a stunning breakthrough for breeders and the breed. I do know pet owners who got cardiologist certs to try and make this project happen but in the end this was squarely in the breeder court and din;t happen due to lack of breeder support.

Sometimes it seems people only want their individual results but not to actually use them towards achieving better health in the breed. I just do not get such self-centred thinking and don't understand how anyone can look into the face of a cavalier and keep letting them suffer by turning away from the opportunities to find the tools that might vastly improve breed health. We don't even see how sad the situation is -- that breeders post in excitement on the L-list when their YOUNG dogs come back with clear hearts! The devastation wrought by MVD is now just the status quo. :(
 
Back
Top