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New Guidelines for the Diagnosis and Treatment of MVD
- Thread starter RodRussell
- Start date
Just grabbed Bruce Fields' book to check:
Pages 16 through 23 talk about Ann's Son and his very successful show career. Page 23 says that Mrs. Pitt and "two other breeders of the time, one of them a great friend of Miss Mostyn Walker....said categorically that Ann's Son was the offspring of a tricolour bitch and a Papillon. Ann's Son certainly had the daintiness and prettiness to justfy a connection with Papillons and we know that Miss Mostyn Walker did keep and breed Papillons. But as Bunty Green points out in a personal communication, Ann's Son 'must have been more Charlie than Papillon. Where else would have have obtained those lovely eyes?'"
These pages also say that Ann's Son weighed 13 lbs and that "Mrs. Pitt acknowledged that Ann's Son was 'very mean under the eyes and he was poor in hindquarters' but nevertheless stated 'he was an outstanding dog.'" I presume that "mean under the eyes" means lack of cushioning?
At any rate, possibly his most important contribution was being the sire of Ch. Daywell Roger.
Pat
Pages 16 through 23 talk about Ann's Son and his very successful show career. Page 23 says that Mrs. Pitt and "two other breeders of the time, one of them a great friend of Miss Mostyn Walker....said categorically that Ann's Son was the offspring of a tricolour bitch and a Papillon. Ann's Son certainly had the daintiness and prettiness to justfy a connection with Papillons and we know that Miss Mostyn Walker did keep and breed Papillons. But as Bunty Green points out in a personal communication, Ann's Son 'must have been more Charlie than Papillon. Where else would have have obtained those lovely eyes?'"
These pages also say that Ann's Son weighed 13 lbs and that "Mrs. Pitt acknowledged that Ann's Son was 'very mean under the eyes and he was poor in hindquarters' but nevertheless stated 'he was an outstanding dog.'" I presume that "mean under the eyes" means lack of cushioning?
At any rate, possibly his most important contribution was being the sire of Ch. Daywell Roger.
Pat
Bet I know something about Controlled Matings this from very experienced breeders who founded and are developing a breed. Meet our Quincy who is an Australian Labradoodle. Way back in his Pedigree there are Labradors and Poodles, then for generations there was Australian Labradoodle bred to Australian Labradoodle, but keep in mind that during the process of breed development there were also some Infusions of other breeds for certain reasons. I also know of successes and even problems that were encountered where some lines were stopped. If the Cavalier is to go in the direction that you mention my first question would be who will be the very experienced breeders that will do this. Personally I think that the best way forward for the Cavalier is with the EBV Program.
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Talking about 1860 Peking China here is an interesting History article not about Dogs but about Pekin Bantam CHICKENS. Well some might find it interesting.
Part 1 mentions the Chickens plus some military things in 1860 during the Second Opium War.
http://www.pekinheaven.com/history1.htm
Part 2 mentions the Chickens in the UK. Interestingly this was mentioned, "Early poultry enthusiasts soon realised that if the breed were to continue in this country, let alone be improved, then outcrossing was necessary." Also interesting, "Todays Pekins are a very long way away from those early rounded Pekins who won top awards at show, they were poor in colour and long in the leg by todays standards." Then I have a think of the Pekinese DOGS from the 1860 Second Opium War that were brought back to the UK and I wonder what happened to them since then till today.
http://www.pekinheaven.com/history2.htm
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Part 1 mentions the Chickens plus some military things in 1860 during the Second Opium War.
http://www.pekinheaven.com/history1.htm
Part 2 mentions the Chickens in the UK. Interestingly this was mentioned, "Early poultry enthusiasts soon realised that if the breed were to continue in this country, let alone be improved, then outcrossing was necessary." Also interesting, "Todays Pekins are a very long way away from those early rounded Pekins who won top awards at show, they were poor in colour and long in the leg by todays standards." Then I have a think of the Pekinese DOGS from the 1860 Second Opium War that were brought back to the UK and I wonder what happened to them since then till today.
http://www.pekinheaven.com/history2.htm
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New Guidelines for the Diagnoses and Treatment of MVD
EddyAnne,
I am not saying that the Cavalier World goes over -board and Cross-Breeds with Cocker Spaniels, but just for some interested Breeders to give this way a chance ,and see what happens.
A Neurologist could maybe keep watch and see what happens,surely there is nothing to be being lost by doing this.
As it happens I have a Photo of this type of mating being done a number of years ago in the Borders of Scotland,.
The Bottom line though is, with EBV's or what ever scheme is thought about to help the Health and future of our Cavaliers,for many Cavalier Breeders , if that Cavalier has no chance of Winning in the Show Scene,end of story.!
I had'nt realized till I read the APGAW Report that a Breeder is Considered a Commercial Breeder if they Breed 5 Litters a Year, so I guess money will come into this as well, since Commercial means a Business ..
So if Cavaliers are not Winning in the Show Ring, that could be damaging the interests money-wise of a Number of Cavalier Breeders because of Stud Fees and the Sale of Cavalier Puppies.
EddyAnne,
I am not saying that the Cavalier World goes over -board and Cross-Breeds with Cocker Spaniels, but just for some interested Breeders to give this way a chance ,and see what happens.
A Neurologist could maybe keep watch and see what happens,surely there is nothing to be being lost by doing this.
As it happens I have a Photo of this type of mating being done a number of years ago in the Borders of Scotland,.
The Bottom line though is, with EBV's or what ever scheme is thought about to help the Health and future of our Cavaliers,for many Cavalier Breeders , if that Cavalier has no chance of Winning in the Show Scene,end of story.!
I had'nt realized till I read the APGAW Report that a Breeder is Considered a Commercial Breeder if they Breed 5 Litters a Year, so I guess money will come into this as well, since Commercial means a Business ..
So if Cavaliers are not Winning in the Show Ring, that could be damaging the interests money-wise of a Number of Cavalier Breeders because of Stud Fees and the Sale of Cavalier Puppies.
Yorkysue
Well-known member
I honestly do not understand why anyone would want to spoil our beautiful breed by crossing them with another breed - whatever it is - just on the offchance that it might (and that is a big 'might') help some of the health issues.
All other breeds have health issues that you will introduce! and if cavalier breeders are finding it difficult enough as it is to try and bring MVD and SM under control with no gene identification - what chance is there of doing it by introducing another breed. It is 'pie in the sky.'
Not to mention that if you use another breed - ie a cocker - what will happen to the coat colours of the new cavalier? as cockers have different colouring genes? and what about the high set ears of the cavalier? and almost flat top of skull? to just mention a couple of things.
Anyone advocating this maybe should be looking at a different breed?
I will stick with cavaliers - warts and all!
All other breeds have health issues that you will introduce! and if cavalier breeders are finding it difficult enough as it is to try and bring MVD and SM under control with no gene identification - what chance is there of doing it by introducing another breed. It is 'pie in the sky.'
Not to mention that if you use another breed - ie a cocker - what will happen to the coat colours of the new cavalier? as cockers have different colouring genes? and what about the high set ears of the cavalier? and almost flat top of skull? to just mention a couple of things.
Anyone advocating this maybe should be looking at a different breed?
I will stick with cavaliers - warts and all!
Yorkysue here is something to think about.
Springer Spaniels and Cocker Spaniel pups were often born within the same litter, size alone being the distinguishing factor as to what they were called in Springing or Cocking which were really function names used in hunting. In 1902 the English Kennel Club recognized the English Springer Spaniel as a distinct breed from English Cocker Spaniel.
Centuries prior, The Duke of Marlborough did some cross breeding and developing, this with the True Toy Spaniel brought from the East via Europe and the Cocking and Springing Spaniel and in doing so produced a developed a Marlborough Type. In the process Marlborough bred some smaller spaniels, these may have been the runts of the litter and they were called Carpet Spaniels, and they may have been crossbred to produce the Blenheim Spaniels that we know today, and back then some of these had the domed head and some had the flatter head that we know in the Cavalier.
I'm talking about the doggies at this place and where the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club are hosting "The Combined Club’s Championship Show" at Blenheim Palace, Oxfordshire over the weekend of 21 & 22 August 2010.
http://www.blenheimpalace.com/
If you do a tour through the Palace keep an eye out on the paintings, you may even spot this one and notice the little doggies at the bottom left and right.
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Continuing on as some on the forum might be interested.
Historically the word Blenheim and probably the first use of the word to England and the English language appears to have come from the name of a small village in Bavaria, South Germany, on the Danube River near Hochstadt. In German that village is spelt and pronounced Blindheim.
Englishman John Churchill when he arrived at that village more likely spelt and pronounced the name as Blindheim, especially so as he was with a friend called Prince Eugene of Savoy who would have spelt and pronounced the name correctly as Blindheim.
At Blindheim village on 13 August 1704 one of the most important battles of the War of the Spanish Succession occurred, where John Churchill with Prince Eugene of Savoy defeated the French and Bavarians under Marshals C. Tallard and F. Marsin who were on the march to take Vienna in Austria, but on seeing John Churchill and Prince Eugene decided to dig-in and defend themselves, and the most defended position was at the village of Blindheim.
For those who are interested here are two eyewitness accounts of the Battle of Blenheim. The first is the Duke of Marlborough's own account of the battle, the second is the account by Dr. Hare, the Duke's Chaplain, at this link address.
http://www.kipar.org/military-history/kirkes_blenheim.html
Back in England when Queen Anne heard the news she was extremely thrilled, and when John Churchill returned back to England she awarded John the title of Duke Of Marlborough and also commissioned a Palace to be built for John and which became known as Blenheim Palace, that name came from the village named Blindheim but somehow the name changed slightly to Blenheim probably due to differences in language.
John Churchill and his wife Sarah Jennings (maiden name) were breeders, and their Cavaliers were referred to by different names particularly "Marlborough Spaniels" and "Blenheim Spaniels". But keep in mind that there were Blenheim coloured Cavaliers before the battle of Blenheim and before that name became commonly known and used.
I suppose the name and pronunciation could vary depending on what part of the world you are in, and maybe the more correct spelling and pronunciation should be Blindheim as referred to the origins of the name as seen on this webpage.
http://www.blindheim.de/schlacht1704/index.html
In relation to the Cavalier Lozenge that some might be thinking about. As the story goes Sarah Jennings was worried and waiting for news of her husband John Churchill who was away fighting at war at the small Bavarian town called Blindheim which occurred on 13 August 1704. Sarah had her pregnant bitch sitting on her lap, and in her anxiety she pressed her thumb on the little bitch's head, and when it later gave birth it produced a whole litter of pups all marked with a chestnut thumb print on top of their heads. But keep in mind that the Lozenge had been know to occur in Cavaliers before, and the Lozenge occurs in some of the other breeds that were used in the cross breeding development of the Cavalier.
.
Historically the word Blenheim and probably the first use of the word to England and the English language appears to have come from the name of a small village in Bavaria, South Germany, on the Danube River near Hochstadt. In German that village is spelt and pronounced Blindheim.
Englishman John Churchill when he arrived at that village more likely spelt and pronounced the name as Blindheim, especially so as he was with a friend called Prince Eugene of Savoy who would have spelt and pronounced the name correctly as Blindheim.
At Blindheim village on 13 August 1704 one of the most important battles of the War of the Spanish Succession occurred, where John Churchill with Prince Eugene of Savoy defeated the French and Bavarians under Marshals C. Tallard and F. Marsin who were on the march to take Vienna in Austria, but on seeing John Churchill and Prince Eugene decided to dig-in and defend themselves, and the most defended position was at the village of Blindheim.
For those who are interested here are two eyewitness accounts of the Battle of Blenheim. The first is the Duke of Marlborough's own account of the battle, the second is the account by Dr. Hare, the Duke's Chaplain, at this link address.
http://www.kipar.org/military-history/kirkes_blenheim.html
Back in England when Queen Anne heard the news she was extremely thrilled, and when John Churchill returned back to England she awarded John the title of Duke Of Marlborough and also commissioned a Palace to be built for John and which became known as Blenheim Palace, that name came from the village named Blindheim but somehow the name changed slightly to Blenheim probably due to differences in language.
John Churchill and his wife Sarah Jennings (maiden name) were breeders, and their Cavaliers were referred to by different names particularly "Marlborough Spaniels" and "Blenheim Spaniels". But keep in mind that there were Blenheim coloured Cavaliers before the battle of Blenheim and before that name became commonly known and used.
I suppose the name and pronunciation could vary depending on what part of the world you are in, and maybe the more correct spelling and pronunciation should be Blindheim as referred to the origins of the name as seen on this webpage.
http://www.blindheim.de/schlacht1704/index.html
In relation to the Cavalier Lozenge that some might be thinking about. As the story goes Sarah Jennings was worried and waiting for news of her husband John Churchill who was away fighting at war at the small Bavarian town called Blindheim which occurred on 13 August 1704. Sarah had her pregnant bitch sitting on her lap, and in her anxiety she pressed her thumb on the little bitch's head, and when it later gave birth it produced a whole litter of pups all marked with a chestnut thumb print on top of their heads. But keep in mind that the Lozenge had been know to occur in Cavaliers before, and the Lozenge occurs in some of the other breeds that were used in the cross breeding development of the Cavalier.
.
New Guidelines for the Diagnoses and Treatment for MVD
EddyAnne ,
Thanks so much for this Information, it's now in my Historical File.
Just to put you on the Spot, I have gone on for a number of years ,wondering about whether the Alteration in the 1930's ,to get the Flat Type of Head for Cavaliers from the Dome Shaped Head of the King Charles Spaniels, has any-thing to do with the Malformed Bone (CM) the Cavaliers have .
What do you think?
EddyAnne ,
Thanks so much for this Information, it's now in my Historical File.
Just to put you on the Spot, I have gone on for a number of years ,wondering about whether the Alteration in the 1930's ,to get the Flat Type of Head for Cavaliers from the Dome Shaped Head of the King Charles Spaniels, has any-thing to do with the Malformed Bone (CM) the Cavaliers have .
What do you think?
From what I have read it appears that CM is at the BACK of the skull at the cerebellum and medulla area, think internally.
I read that King Charles Spaniels could have CM/SM, and that breed DOES HAVE Domed Shaped Heads. Note that breed mentioned on Dr. Guy Rouleau's presentation slide at the Chiari Conference, see a copy here.
.
Here is an interesting article on history and breed development that some might like to read.
The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
by Sue Newnes, Penquite Cavaliers
Part 1: The Origin of Toy Spaniels
http://cavalierkingcharles.net/penquitecavaliers/history.html
Part 2: Modern Times
http://cavalierkingcharles.net/penquitecavaliers/history_part2.html
Edited later to add this - PLEASE NOTE
Sue Newnes contacted me privately to inform me that she has no objections to people reading the articles, they are just one persons opinion, but would appreciate it if I would point out that the site has been lapsed/closed for many years and is no longer up to date. Also she looked at the site I provided links to and the guest book there and she realised as the domain name no longer belonged to her it is being used by another. Her personal details have not been removed. She mentioned "Please point this out to CT members. I do not and have never endorsed any of the links attached to the guest book." Also that she is trying to get the website removed.
Years ago I knew of Sue’s article which I thought was excellent. I did a Google search to find it again and the links I provided was from the search. I did not go through the site that was there and I did not realise it had been lapsed/closed and the domain name no longer belonged to her.
.
The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
by Sue Newnes, Penquite Cavaliers
Part 1: The Origin of Toy Spaniels
http://cavalierkingcharles.net/penquitecavaliers/history.html
Part 2: Modern Times
http://cavalierkingcharles.net/penquitecavaliers/history_part2.html
Edited later to add this - PLEASE NOTE
Sue Newnes contacted me privately to inform me that she has no objections to people reading the articles, they are just one persons opinion, but would appreciate it if I would point out that the site has been lapsed/closed for many years and is no longer up to date. Also she looked at the site I provided links to and the guest book there and she realised as the domain name no longer belonged to her it is being used by another. Her personal details have not been removed. She mentioned "Please point this out to CT members. I do not and have never endorsed any of the links attached to the guest book." Also that she is trying to get the website removed.
Years ago I knew of Sue’s article which I thought was excellent. I did a Google search to find it again and the links I provided was from the search. I did not go through the site that was there and I did not realise it had been lapsed/closed and the domain name no longer belonged to her.
.
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RodRussell
Well-known member
The book that Sue Newnes first mentions in her article about the origin of toy spaniels, "Toy Dogs and their Ancestors", is downloadable in pdf format from Google Books at http://books.google.com/books?id=CM...their+Ancestors"+Lytton&source=gbs_navlinks_s or http://tinyurl.com/ybeg2e2 for short.
--
Rod Russell
--
Rod Russell
PLEASE NOTE
Sue Newnes contacted me privately to inform me that she has no objections to people reading the articles, they are just one persons opinion, but would appreciate it if I would point out that the site has been lapsed/closed for many years and is no longer up to date. Also she looked at the site I provided links to and the guest book there and she realised as the domain name no longer belonged to her it is being used by another. Her personal details have not been removed. She mentioned "Please point this out to CT members. I do not and have never endorsed any of the links attached to the guest book." Also that she is trying to get the website removed.
Years ago I knew of Sue’s article which I thought was excellent. I did a Google search to find it again and the links I provided was from the search. I did not go through the site that was there and I did not realise it had been lapsed/closed and the domain name no longer belonged to her.
.
Sue Newnes contacted me privately to inform me that she has no objections to people reading the articles, they are just one persons opinion, but would appreciate it if I would point out that the site has been lapsed/closed for many years and is no longer up to date. Also she looked at the site I provided links to and the guest book there and she realised as the domain name no longer belonged to her it is being used by another. Her personal details have not been removed. She mentioned "Please point this out to CT members. I do not and have never endorsed any of the links attached to the guest book." Also that she is trying to get the website removed.
Years ago I knew of Sue’s article which I thought was excellent. I did a Google search to find it again and the links I provided was from the search. I did not go through the site that was there and I did not realise it had been lapsed/closed and the domain name no longer belonged to her.
.
I am soooo technology challenged. I couldn't figure out how to download from this link. I'm still trying if anyone wants to walk me through it as I'd like to see if the PDF loads more easily than the ones I've saved before.
These are links that I have. The full PDF takes quite a while to download (I have country satellite snail speed so this might not be a problem for many).
for just the origin chapter: http://csl.stanford.edu/~trish/TD_Origin-chap2.pdf
for the chapter about the pyrame: http://csl.stanford.edu/~trish/TD-Pyrame-chap.pdf
full book pdf: http://csl.stanford.edu/~trish/TD_Book-1911.pdf
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Soushiruiuma
Well-known member
Interesting! On page 195 (I skimmed) she mentions that "inflammation of the brain" is one of the most common results of excessive inbreeding. I have to wonder if this is an early reference to SM.
I love the absolute bewilderment about how coat color is inherited. I have been meaning to go through some old literature about inheritance to see how people misinterpreted what seems blatantly obvious nowadays. One day I will have free time.