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New here... From Arkansas
- Thread starter Pumkin
- Start date
Pumkin:
I know you may be upset but please listen to what people are saying. And understand that while this website IS here to talk and share about cavaliers, the single most IMPORTANT thing this website and community is here for is to cherish and protect a breed that is under serious health threats due to unscrupulous breeding practices of backyard breeders -- and puppy mills -- one is as bad as the other. And often the people who say they are small breeders are simply fronts for puppy mills. Puppy millers typically set up lots of small websites saying they breed one or maybe two breeds. You google around and find the same PO Box is selling 17 different breeds.
Many people here have been down the route you are going and know what prices a breeder should be charging and what the breeder should be saying. They are telling you things now to prevent what could be real unhappiness further down the line as well as the acquisition of a puppy that will have very expensive health problems (in this breed you tend to get what you pay for as healthy breeding *costs more*). There are many unscrupulous breeders out there and the site you have posted raises some of the more typical red flags about a backyard breeder who is NOT breeding for health or conformation.
One of the red flags would be the price of these puppies -- this is simply too low for a breeder who is doing any proper health testing of her breeding animals (this is LESS than what many breed rescues often charge for dogs they take from puppy mills for example -- it is just way too low and I'd really be suspicious that they may not be breeding at all, but brokering puppy mill dogs instead). Also: the fact that they register with other registries than the AKC indicates they are trying to dupe buyers into thinking the dogs are more valuable than they are. The other registries are known as trash/bogus registries -- anyone can register a dog there. Sure they give you 'papers' but they are worthless. Typically what this type of breeder does is say they ALSO register SOME dogs with the AKC but actually don't register any of them there -- they add it in to their website to make themselves look more legitimate. Or, they have one or two dogs that could produce litters they CULD register with the AKC but suddenly you will be told the AKC ones cost more. As Bruce -- a very reputable, health focused, experienced breeder says -- you need to ask if YOUR puppy has AKC registry. I am willing to bet it probably does not.
Some of the other things you have said this breeder told you are all the red flags that indicate a backyard (unscrupulous) breeder at best, I'm afraid -- that's why Bruce rightly suggests people take their time and investigate a potential breeder carefully.
Whether they are verified on PayPal means nothing -- I mean, I am verified on PayPal and that wouldn't mean I am a reputable breeder! Whether they have their dogs cardiac tested, test for eyes, hips, knees, potentially also screen for syringomyelia, and follow the well-established cardiac breeding protocol for the breed is what really matters.
Have they discussed with you the fact that, because of breeders who do not tecardiac test their breeding animals and follow the heart protocols, statistically, half of all cavaliers will go into heart problems by age five? That if they are not cardiac testing and following the heart protocol, your puppy will have a much higher chance of acquiring a heart murmur by age five and dying before age 10 from congestive heart failure? Have they mentioned that the neurological condition syringomyelia seems to affect at least half of all cavaliers, and told you how they are addressing this in their breeding programme? Have they discussed any health issues pertaining to the breed at all with you? A reputable breeder would have done all these things.
Did they tell you that thumbprint on your ruby's head is actually a white cosmetic mismarking on a ruby which ideally should be completely red, not the thumbprint that IS considered desireable, on a blenheim (red and white) cavalier?
Here's a good link for learning about what to look for in a breeder and what to ask:
http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=11335
People here know this breed and (often through sad and costly personal experience) know what to look out for from puppy mill and backyard breeder vendors. They are trying to give you support and advice now that you may later regret not having listened to. At least have a read through the link I offer above and think through this carefully before making a commitment to these puppy vendors. Consider too the overall costs to you of caring for a breed that MAY have expensive health issues and is more likely to have them sooner if purchased from a breeder who isn't health testing and breeding carefully for health. A single visit and testing at a cardiologist for a dog with a heart murmur could run you the cost of the puppy you are talking about -- and that will only be the start of things. Buying a puppy at higher cost from a reputable breeder vastly increases the chances that you won;t be paying out those costs within the next couple of years -- and maybe never. You never save money by 'buying cheap' with dogs.
I know you may be upset but please listen to what people are saying. And understand that while this website IS here to talk and share about cavaliers, the single most IMPORTANT thing this website and community is here for is to cherish and protect a breed that is under serious health threats due to unscrupulous breeding practices of backyard breeders -- and puppy mills -- one is as bad as the other. And often the people who say they are small breeders are simply fronts for puppy mills. Puppy millers typically set up lots of small websites saying they breed one or maybe two breeds. You google around and find the same PO Box is selling 17 different breeds.
Many people here have been down the route you are going and know what prices a breeder should be charging and what the breeder should be saying. They are telling you things now to prevent what could be real unhappiness further down the line as well as the acquisition of a puppy that will have very expensive health problems (in this breed you tend to get what you pay for as healthy breeding *costs more*). There are many unscrupulous breeders out there and the site you have posted raises some of the more typical red flags about a backyard breeder who is NOT breeding for health or conformation.
One of the red flags would be the price of these puppies -- this is simply too low for a breeder who is doing any proper health testing of her breeding animals (this is LESS than what many breed rescues often charge for dogs they take from puppy mills for example -- it is just way too low and I'd really be suspicious that they may not be breeding at all, but brokering puppy mill dogs instead). Also: the fact that they register with other registries than the AKC indicates they are trying to dupe buyers into thinking the dogs are more valuable than they are. The other registries are known as trash/bogus registries -- anyone can register a dog there. Sure they give you 'papers' but they are worthless. Typically what this type of breeder does is say they ALSO register SOME dogs with the AKC but actually don't register any of them there -- they add it in to their website to make themselves look more legitimate. Or, they have one or two dogs that could produce litters they CULD register with the AKC but suddenly you will be told the AKC ones cost more. As Bruce -- a very reputable, health focused, experienced breeder says -- you need to ask if YOUR puppy has AKC registry. I am willing to bet it probably does not.
Some of the other things you have said this breeder told you are all the red flags that indicate a backyard (unscrupulous) breeder at best, I'm afraid -- that's why Bruce rightly suggests people take their time and investigate a potential breeder carefully.
Whether they are verified on PayPal means nothing -- I mean, I am verified on PayPal and that wouldn't mean I am a reputable breeder! Whether they have their dogs cardiac tested, test for eyes, hips, knees, potentially also screen for syringomyelia, and follow the well-established cardiac breeding protocol for the breed is what really matters.
Have they discussed with you the fact that, because of breeders who do not tecardiac test their breeding animals and follow the heart protocols, statistically, half of all cavaliers will go into heart problems by age five? That if they are not cardiac testing and following the heart protocol, your puppy will have a much higher chance of acquiring a heart murmur by age five and dying before age 10 from congestive heart failure? Have they mentioned that the neurological condition syringomyelia seems to affect at least half of all cavaliers, and told you how they are addressing this in their breeding programme? Have they discussed any health issues pertaining to the breed at all with you? A reputable breeder would have done all these things.
Did they tell you that thumbprint on your ruby's head is actually a white cosmetic mismarking on a ruby which ideally should be completely red, not the thumbprint that IS considered desireable, on a blenheim (red and white) cavalier?
Here's a good link for learning about what to look for in a breeder and what to ask:
http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=11335
People here know this breed and (often through sad and costly personal experience) know what to look out for from puppy mill and backyard breeder vendors. They are trying to give you support and advice now that you may later regret not having listened to. At least have a read through the link I offer above and think through this carefully before making a commitment to these puppy vendors. Consider too the overall costs to you of caring for a breed that MAY have expensive health issues and is more likely to have them sooner if purchased from a breeder who isn't health testing and breeding carefully for health. A single visit and testing at a cardiologist for a dog with a heart murmur could run you the cost of the puppy you are talking about -- and that will only be the start of things. Buying a puppy at higher cost from a reputable breeder vastly increases the chances that you won;t be paying out those costs within the next couple of years -- and maybe never. You never save money by 'buying cheap' with dogs.
Cathy T
Well-known member
I can't add one thing to Karlin's post! She has said it all. I personally am offended that you are making a personal attack on "us" who have researched breeders and truly care about the best interest of this breed. Are you not listening to what is being said? You asked for advice. I'm sorry the advice doesn't suit you....surely you will do what you want. Did you not read that Holly had to have her puppy put to sleep because of a health defect from an unreputable breeder? Do you really want to put yourself through that kind of heartache? I don't think so. Take a look at some of the health issues being discussed in the health section of this board. Are you prepared to deal with sm, mvd, luxating patellas, dry eye/curly coat? If not....then do not purchase from this "breeder". The intial outlay of cash to purchase a Cavalier is nothing compared to what it will cost you over the life of the dog.
The average price for a Cavalier who has been health tested and bred responsibily by a reputable breeder in the U S is $2,000. If that is more than you are willing to pay for a healthy puppy...what can I say?
The average price for a Cavalier who has been health tested and bred responsibily by a reputable breeder in the U S is $2,000. If that is more than you are willing to pay for a healthy puppy...what can I say?
WoodHaven
Well-known member
750 dollars would be considered inexpensive for a mixed breed here. Cavalier breeders who charge 2000 or so and test are more likely to breed healthy pets-- AND if they don't they are more likely to help out if they did breed a dog with health issues.
No one said you had to spend a heck of a lot for a purebred cavalier... But if you can't afford more than 750 dollars -- I'd choose a different breed. The health issues that this breed can have are devistating (both emotionally and financially).
People who are breeding JUST for pets are usually doing the breed a misservice. THERE are literally millions of very nice dogs in shelters. IF one is breeding they should AT LEAST be trying to improve the breed.... not increase the number of pets.
THERE was another breeder who only had a few dogs in his house (Pennsylvania puppymill bust of february 2006) HE Had an outbuilding that house the other breeding dogs (over 100). He had a lot of people convinced he was a good breeder (and he at least showed a few of his dogs).
You sound young and hopeful -- You are speaking to hundreds of people who have ' been there -- done that '=== I am sorry you feel this board is picking on you...
Would you expect a rolex for 100 dollars???
I volunteer in cavalier rescue, we take in many of these "pet cavaliers" every year. People can't afford the health issues that these pups get. Check out www.cavalierrescueusa.org
WoodHaven
Well-known member
Certainly didn't mean to offend... just relaying my story! I hope things go well for you! Good luck!
Holly, at least in my humble opinion, you didn't say anything to warrant an apology. You are trying to HELP someone who can't see the "bridge is out". I always try to educate-- even if I feel they aren't "getting it". I say, thanks for trying.
Bruce H
Well-known member
I can see where you may have thought we were picking on you, but believe me we were not. In fact, we had your best interests at heart. No one here wants to see you have your heart broken if you happen to get a puppy with serious health issues. Can you get a healthy puppy from a puppy mill or BYB? Sure you can. But the problem is, the odds of that puppy being healthy and living a long life is significantly reduced because there is no health testing or thought that goes into the breeding.
Every now and then we get a call from someone in tears who bought a puppy from a mill or BYB and have problems (or worse) with with their puppy and ask us what to do. No one here wants to see you go through that. My wife Kris is also the rescue coordinator for CKCSC for Minnesota and we have had to deal with some of the dogs with health issues. Believe me, it's not fun having a dog with serious health issues.
I normally don't talk about cost, but I hope you don't think that by paying $2,000 for a puppy, you're making some breeder rich. I wish that I could make money, but it just doesn't happen; you don't want to know what our annual vet bills are, let alone all the other expenses associated with breeding responsibly and showing. It may sound like a cliche, but I really DO do it for the "love of the breed".
So anyway, if you do get a Cavalier, I hope it is healthy; from what I have read in your posts, it most definately will be happy! And join us here if you get one. I think you will find that everyone here is really great and there is a huge amount of combined knowledge. Regardless of where you get a puppy, people here will celebrate your successes and cry with you over your setbacks.
Every now and then we get a call from someone in tears who bought a puppy from a mill or BYB and have problems (or worse) with with their puppy and ask us what to do. No one here wants to see you go through that. My wife Kris is also the rescue coordinator for CKCSC for Minnesota and we have had to deal with some of the dogs with health issues. Believe me, it's not fun having a dog with serious health issues.
I normally don't talk about cost, but I hope you don't think that by paying $2,000 for a puppy, you're making some breeder rich. I wish that I could make money, but it just doesn't happen; you don't want to know what our annual vet bills are, let alone all the other expenses associated with breeding responsibly and showing. It may sound like a cliche, but I really DO do it for the "love of the breed".
So anyway, if you do get a Cavalier, I hope it is healthy; from what I have read in your posts, it most definately will be happy! And join us here if you get one. I think you will find that everyone here is really great and there is a huge amount of combined knowledge. Regardless of where you get a puppy, people here will celebrate your successes and cry with you over your setbacks.
