When will cavalier breeders understand!!!!

[Karlin]

I know it has now turned to not show breeders but those winning titles. Can we please stop and think about what Sins said. It really is upsetting to those with Cavaliers with SM, who instead of being supporting, more are focused on the show breeders and politics it seems.

SM is not as simple but can we focus on what one CAN do, including having your own Cavaliers checked for Heart Murmers etc. at shows or just drop this subject of Champions etc.

I cannot disagree more.

Many of us with dogs with SM do not find it irrelevant or upsetting that there should be a focus on how champions are chosen and judged, as this is directly relevant to the health of the breed. Winning males in particular have a massive genetic influence because such males are used over and over and over at stud and can sire thousands of puppies. With no meaningful health evaluation linked to awarding championships, that means generations of dogs can be affected by problems not visible to the eye.

I do not think Sins is saying that anyone should be dropping such discussions.

There are other discussion threads if anyone prefers to focus on support for SM dog owners-- this thread, as its title indicates, is focused on how breeders breed and so including a discussion of how champions are chosen is directly relevant to the topic.

A discussion of support for SM dog owners would take it off-topic and so is more appropriate for a different thread. There are many such threads ongoing in the SM forum at all times, for example. If this topic of discussion here does not suit anyone, please just avoid the thread or similar topics, as there are undoubtedly many other topics to choose from and contribute to on the board that would be more personally interesting, relevant or comfortable.

 

[anniemac]

As discussed elsewhere, hips and patellas are not part of any UK cavalier health testing list.

Perhaps they should be but, as far as I know as a long serving health representative, there are no figures that would support a claim they are significant problems in the UK cavalier population.

There is a new survelliance study being piloted that should help establish just what diseases are the main issues in each breed, and we could find joint problems are a hidden problem, but until then Kate's list shows how much there is for breeders to juggle with already.

You are right about finding a 'best match' This is what the EBV Scheme will eventually give us

The reason I mentioned that to add was because they are specifically mentioned under then puppy buying guide here and on rods site. It has nothing to do with anything other than there are several conditions that would be tough. Hopefully the ebv scheme and what you mentioned would help. Will not comment more on this thread but just wanted to add that it is a difficult task breeders that are trying to breed healthy puppies have.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

 

[Bet]

When will cavalier breeders understand !!!!!

The reason I mentioned that to add was because they are specifically mentioned under then puppy buying guide here and on rods site. It has nothing to do with anything other than there are several conditions that would be tough. Hopefully the ebv scheme and what you mentioned would help. Will not comment more on this thread but just wanted to add that it is a difficult task breeders that are trying to breed healthy puppies have.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Hope it's OK adding this comment which has just appeared in this week's DOG WORLD

It's a continuing Article about the Lead Story in last week's DOG WORLD, about the ADVISORY COUNCIL's recognition should be ,,that among Breeders that they are Breeding Pets ,not Breeding for Showing, this is what the ADVISORY COUNCIL's Members have Agreed

There was the usual complaints from Show Breeders about the Stance the Advisory Council is taking about this, but I think this comment sums this up which said,that it has to be Acknowledged that ,it is the Pet Owners who are Underpinning the WORLD OF SHOW BREEDING.

Where are the Surplus Cavalier Puppies sold to from the Cavalier Show Breeders here in Britain,all those Puppies just cannot be being sold to other Cavalier Owners who are Showing Cavaliers Abroad. The Surplus Cavalier Puppies must be going to Cavalier Pet Owners.

This Comment further said that ,that Pet Owners are are just Buying VETS BILLS.

Well, in the Cavalier World ,many Pet Cavalier Owners know all about that with Price of Medication for SM and MVD.


Bet

 

[Kate H]

Without in any way downplaying the problems we face as Cavalier owners (all owners, whether they breed, show, do agility or other sports, or simply enjoy), we can sometimes get so focused on our particular problems that we lose perspective on the wider world. In the St Bernard breed notes in Our Dogs there are two letters that could have been written by most of us! St Bernards are one of the 15 breeds that the KC is focusing on for health in the show ring - telling judges to dismiss any dogs with obvious health problems, and asking for veterinary inspection of the top winners at shows. Both the letters appeal for health issues to be taken seriously, otherwise St Bs will be extinct before long; breeders are mating too early, not doing health checks, not attending health seminars, showing dogs with health problems, not being honest with puppy buyers, not giving buyers of their breeding enough support when things go wrong...

All sounds depressingly familiar - and comes up from time to time in a wide variety of breeds (listen to Border Collie people on epilepsy!). We are certainly not alone in our problems, and some breeds have almost as many problems as Cavaliers have. So I'm not sure that Cavalier breeders are necessarily outstandingly bad; all breeders in all breeds (like all humans everywhere) are a mixed bag of the good, the bad, and the indifferent. We need to give the good breeders all the support we can and steer puppy buyers in their direction.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

 

[Karlin]

Well said, Kate. While for obvious reasons we focus on Cavaliers here, there is a much much broader issue regarding pedigree dog health and dog breeding generally–and that includes the so-called designer crossbreeds. Pedigree Dogs Exposed, don't forget, was not just about Cavaliers–it focused on a number of breeds that were used as examples of where serious health and quality-of-life problems were developing because of the aims of the show ring and changing tastes in appearance.

As a result of that program, there have already been inquiries at senior government level in the UK into pedigree dog health, as well as companion animal welfare. But again, these inquiries and the dog breeding advisory Council is not just focused on Cavaliers, it is focused on all breeds.

St. Bernards are indeed another breed in trouble, with a very short average lifespan and a growing problem with poor temperament due to poor breeding, on top of health problems.

And the problem of breeders wanting to avoid having to do anything serious about health problems and accept that there are serious genetic issues in their breed and/or their own lines also has a very long history.

The famous dog geneticist Padgett referred to it as Omerta–a Mafia like code of silence that no one will break.

For more, see this must-read famous essay written back in 2004 by a dog breeder -- which sadly is going to sound *all too familiar* as well...:

http://letsdiscussjudging.com/Omerta.html

Here are the closing paragraphs, which sound pretty much like so many posts we have made here about cavalier breeders. That is why I wish people would stop thinking arguing for health in a way that focuses on breeders is about 'politics' against breeders :sl*p:. It is simply where change must happen. But please folks, never forget that puppy buyers, meaning you and me, ALSO have a total responsibility to only support good, testing breeders or we too are just as unethical and thoughtless as those who breed with no care for health. Too many BUYERS are willing to make a selfish, breed-destroying compromise purchase on the basis of price or convenience. :x

BREAK THE SILENCE

What can we do to break the deadly Code of Silence? The majority, if not all, breed clubs have a code of ethics that require members to breed healthy dogs. One of the places to start is with the clubs. Instead of being social institutions or “good ole boy” clubs, these breed organizations could begin upholding the very real goal of protecting the future of the breed by demanding and requiring that genetic testing be undertaken prior to breeding. Far more serious than breeding a sixteen-month old bitch is the practice of breeding without taking every possible safeguard that genetic health is a priority. Yet, in many clubs “poor breeders” are identified by the age at which they breed or the frequency in which they breed rather than the very real criteria that proof of health be mandatory. Take the emphasis off winning – how many clubs determine “breeder of the year” based on the number of progeny that wins? Are there clubs that actually require that the breeder also must show proof that they are doing all they can do to ensure the future of the breed?

We can break the silence by commending those with the courage and determination to talk about problems, share successes and knowledge instead of ostracizing them. Omerta fails if every puppy buyer and stud dog user demands that proof of genetic testing is shown. The Code of Silence fails when we realize that it is not enough to breed winning dogs or to command the highest price for puppies or to have a stud dog that is used fifty, sixty, a hundred times; we must take back the passion with which we all first embraced our breeds and passionately work with determination toward a future where the numbers of genetic disorders are reduced each year.

If those you know breed without testing, ask yourself why – is it lack of courage in perhaps finding a carrier within their breeding stock? Is it because they fear a financial loss if they test? Is it because they truly believe that their dogs couldn’t possibly be less than perfect? Is it because they fear they will lose their “top breeder” standing if they admit that there are problems that need working on? Is it because they fear that it will be harder to breed beautiful and healthy dogs? Or have they lost the passion with which they first loved the breed while they were climbing the road to winning success? Or, more sadly, is it because they really just don’t care about that which they cannot actually see?

BETTER FUTURE

It is hard work and takes great courage to develop a breeding program using scientific methods and tests, but the hope of a better future should drive us all to that very commitment. The key is being able to work together without fear of whispers or silence. Omerta, the code of silence, can be broken if more of us decide that we are not going to tolerate the quiet any longer.

 

[Bet]

When will cavalier breeders understand !!!!!!

Well said, Kate. While for obvious reasons we focus on Cavaliers here, there is a much much broader issue regarding pedigree dog health and dog breeding generally–and that includes the so-called designer crossbreeds. Pedigree Dogs Exposed, don't forget, was not just about Cavaliers–it focused on a number of breeds that were used as examples of where serious health and quality-of-life problems were developing because of the aims of the show ring and changing tastes in appearance.

As a result of that program, there have already been inquiries at senior government level in the UK into pedigree dog health, as well as companion animal welfare. But again, these inquiries and the dog breeding advisory Council is not just focused on Cavaliers, it is focused on all breeds.

St. Bernards are indeed another breed in trouble, with a very short average lifespan and a growing problem with poor temperament due to poor breeding, on top of health problems.

And the problem of breeders wanting to avoid having to do anything serious about health problems and accept that there are serious genetic issues in their breed and/or their own lines also has a very long history.

The famous dog geneticist Padgett referred to it as Omerta–a Mafia like code of silence that no one will break.

For more, see this must-read famous essay written back in 2004 by a dog breeder -- which sadly is going to sound *all too familiar* as well...:

http://letsdiscussjudging.com/Omerta.html

Here are the closing paragraphs, which sound pretty much like so many posts we have made here about cavalier breeders. That is why I wish people would stop thinking arguing for health in a way that focuses on breeders is about 'politics' against breeders :sl*p:. It is simply where change must happen. But please folks, never forget that puppy buyers, meaning you and me, ALSO have a total responsibility to only support good, testing breeders or we too are just as unethical and thoughtless as those who breed with no care for health. Too many BUYERS are willing to make a selfish, breed-destroying compromise purchase on the basis of price or convenience. :x

WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Karlin,

I have just read the full OMERTA : The Breeders' Code of Silence Article.


It is sure worth a Read by every-one who follows what is on this List.

Yes ,as the Article mentions ,most Modern -Day Breeders and the Mafia have the Code of Silence in Common

I know that Breeders of other Breeds are involved with this Article, but I only know about the Cavalier Breed having worked so long with their Pedigrees ,particularly MVD Pedigrees, and how true it can be said for our Cavaliers that finally Two Healthy Cavaliers ,but Gene-Defective Carriers combine to that First Tell -Tale Affected Off-Spring.

That time and time again Geneticists tell us how this is Possible.

I just do not know about other Breeds and can only mention our Cavaliers ,because the Researchers say that there are Many Cavalier Carriers around with MVD Genes.

To mention Cavaliers again, they are the Only TOY BREED with such an Early On-Set Type of MVD.

I wonder if the Members of the Advisory Council have read this Article, with their Comments in last week's DOG WORLD ,it sure woild be worth their while.


Bet

 

[Bet]

When will cavalier breeders understand !!!!!!

Without in any way downplaying the problems we face as Cavalier owners (all owners, whether they breed, show, do agility or other sports, or simply enjoy), we can sometimes get so focused on our particular problems that we lose perspective on the wider world. In the St Bernard breed notes in Our Dogs there are two letters that could have been written by most of us! St Bernards are one of the 15 breeds that the KC is focusing on for health in the show ring - telling judges to dismiss any dogs with obvious health problems, and asking for veterinary inspection of the top winners at shows. Both the letters appeal for health issues to be taken seriously, otherwise St Bs will be extinct before long; breeders are mating too early, not doing health checks, not attending health seminars, showing dogs with health problems, not being honest with puppy buyers, not giving buyers of their breeding enough support when things go wrong...

All sounds depressingly familiar - and comes up from time to time in a wide variety of breeds (listen to Border Collie people on epilepsy!). We are certainly not alone in our problems, and some breeds have almost as many problems as Cavaliers have. So I'm not sure that Cavalier breeders are necessarily outstandingly bad; all breeders in all breeds (like all humans everywhere) are a mixed bag of the good, the bad, and the indifferent. We need to give the good breeders all the support we can and steer puppy buyers in their direction.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Yes Kate,

The Ball is is in the Court of the UK CKCS CLUB'S Committee, they only need to put a List on the CLUB'S WEB SITE OF CAVALIER PUPPIES AVALIABLE FOR SALE from Cavalier Breeders who have Health Tested and Followed the Breeding Guidelines for MVD and SM.

Nothing could be Simpler than that.

Why Cannot this be being done, perhaps some-body can Tell me.!

Bet

 

[Davecav]

Bet

If I were to have puppies that I wanted to find a loving and forever home for, I would fill in the Puppy registration form on the CKCS Club website and send it to Sylvia Lymer who runs the puppy register. There are questions on the form re health testing Eyes/hearts/MRI and the last dates these were done.

Anyone looking for a puppy has just to telephone the Puppy Register Co-ordinator to find out who has puppies and whether they are from health tested stock.

What could be easier?

Some people might not want their puppies to be listed on a Website for all to see. You probably get some pretty dodgy people ringing up who are total time wasters. At least if potential puppy buyers have to go through the co-ordinator first, it means they are genuine potential buyers.

 

[sins]

I agree with Davecav.
The Cavalier Club breed register is very valuable service both for pet buyers and breeders.It's a good starting point to start searching for your puppy.The register coordinator does this voluntarily.
Pet buyers can also check out the kennel Club "Find a puppy" service.
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/s...uppy/Cavalier+King+Charles+Spaniel.findapuppy
Just be careful here though....Just because they advertise on here doesn't mean they test routinely or are even ethical breeders.
Some breeders advertise the tests that they carry out.Some will say they do all three tests and one breeder states that parents and grandparents are Mri scanned.
Look for the BC symbol also under the advertisement which tells you that the breeder is a member of one or more breed clubs.
You can also contact Margaret C on this site who has details of breeders who say they test.
Sins

 

[Karlin]

Puppy registers can be very useful as a very basic starting point. However, that is really all they are because there is no way for the club to verify that anyone is doing what they say they are doing and testing is not mandatory. The best approach is, if you get the name of a couple of breeders who are said to be testing, use the puppy buying guides linked to here to find out exactly what tests you want to be asking about, and ask to see the actual certificates and the results and then discuss those with the breeder. Any testing, reputable breeder will be happy to go through the results and their implication.

But the fact that someone is saying they are testing cannot be considered a reliable indicator either that they are, or that they are using those results responsibly. The burden is still on the puppy buyer to verify what has been said and to make sure the breeder actually has certificates that prove the dog has been tested, and to determine the actual results. Buyers should also be checking at what age the parents were bred and keep in mind that a clear heart on a breeding dog does not mean the breeder is following the MVD protocol, unless you are able to also see a clear heart certificate from the parents of each parent dog–these should indicate that all four grandparents were heart clear at least until age 5.

 

[Davecav]

I agree totally - Always ask to see the certificates etc. A breeder with nothing to hide will be more than happy to show buyers - and give copies.

 

[Bet]

When will cavalier breeders understand !!!!!!

Puppy registers can be very useful as a very basic starting point. However, that is really all they are because there is no way for the club to verify that anyone is doing what they say they are doing and testing is not mandatory. The best approach is, if you get the name of a couple of breeders who are said to be testing, use the puppy buying guides linked to here to find out exactly what tests you want to be asking about, and ask to see the actual certificates and the results and then discuss those with the breeder. Any testing, reputable breeder will be happy to go through the results and their implication.

But the fact that someone is saying they are testing cannot be considered a reliable indicator either that they are, or that they are using those results responsibly. The burden is still on the puppy buyer to verify what has been said and to make sure the breeder actually has certificates that prove the dog has been tested, and to determine the actual results. Buyers should also be checking at what age the parents were bred and keep in mind that a clear heart on a breeding dog does not mean the breeder is following the MVD protocol, unless you are able to also see a clear heart certificate from the parents of each parent dog–these should indicate that all four grandparents were heart clear at least until age 5.

WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Yes this is what the saving of the Cavalier Breed boils down to, get to the Cavalier Buying Public, tell them what a Sick Breed the Cavaliers are, and to Steer Clear of Cavaliers unless the Cavalier Buyer can see Proof that the Cavalier Breeder is following the Breeding Guidelines for MVD which were issued by the UK CKCS CLUB in 1987 , and Recently for SM..

It's the Power of the Buyers of Cavaliers who will have the last say as to whether our Cavaliers have a Future or not.

Evidence of this is happening ,because the Registrations of Cavaliers by the Kennel Club has fallen by around 25% in the Past 2 Years.

Now down to around 8.000 from over 11.000.

I know that this will not Guarantee that their Cavalier won't succumb in the Future to either of those Horrible Diseases,
but at least the Cavalier Buyer will have confidence that the Breeder they are dealing with ,is doing all She or He can by following the Breeding Guidelines, which is not evident by some of the Litters Registered at Present in the KC'S BRS


Bet

 

[Bet]

When will cavalier breeders understand !!!!!

WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Yes this is what the saving of the Cavalier Breed boils down to, get to the Cavalier Buying Public, tell them what a Sick Breed the Cavaliers are, and to Steer Clear of Cavaliers unless the Cavalier Buyer can see Proof that the Cavalier Breeder is following the Breeding Guidelines for MVD which were issued by the UK CKCS CLUB in 1987 , and Recently for SM..

It's the Power of the Buyers of Cavaliers who will have the last say as to whether our Cavaliers have a Future or not.

Evidence of this is happening ,because the Registrations of Cavaliers by the Kennel Club has fallen by around 25% in the Past 2 Years.


Now down to around 8.000 from over 11.000.

I know that this will not Guarantee that their Cavalier won't succumb in the Future to either of those Horrible Diseases,
but at least the Cavalier Buyer will have confidence that the Breeder they are dealing with ,is doing all She or He can by following the Breeding Guidelines, which is not evident by some of the Litters Registered at Present in the KC'S BRS


Bet

WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!

Is this the Final Nail for the Survival of our Cavalier Breed ,to know that over 90% of Cavaliers have CM, ..

This condition is Chacterised by Brains being Too Big, and Skulls Too Small.

That 85 Whelps which were Researched for the Foetal Tissue Rsearch, all had CM.

It must mean that just about every Cavalier is a Carrier of CM Genes ,on Top of Most being Affected by CM.

Also the Cavaliers are Battling their MVD Problem ,which has 50 % of them at 5-6 Years of Age with a Heart Murmur.

The Research Cardiologists have said that Many Cavaliers are also Carriers of MVD Genes.

The Cavalier Breed has to get Fresh Genes from Some-Where.

Is this what the Kennel Club has now realized ,that the Cavaliers are about Finished and they are now considering Out- Crossing?

Did any of us ever think our Beloved Cavaliers would come to this?

Bet

 

[Karlin]

I don't think they are 'finished', Bet -- but the breed needs better friends in many of the breeders who remain more focused on personal achievement in the show world or making money off puppies than in guardianship of the breed itself.

Outcrossing remains controversial and many researchers do feel this is NOT necessary IF breeders tested, shared information and focused on lowering incidence of the serious health problems that threaten the breed's survival.

I think there's a serious argument for doing something less drastic than outcrossing -- starting to scan/test cavaliers coming from pet market-focused breeders for good candidates to bring into the gene pool. I know for a fact that many of these dogs have very good scans and also are distant from the 'popular sires' and overbred popular bloodlines that make so many dogs in the show world extremely closely related. For example I know of one such breeder who does scan and auscultate with a cardiologist, who follows health protocols and has many A dogs. But finding studs can be extremely difficult because the show world breeders dismiss such breeders and also keep results hidden amongst themselves. Surely a large number of A dogs from diverse lines not immediately connected to show champions is an important resource? One of my own A dogs from a similar situation in Ireland, remains heart clear as well, going on age 8. An extremely fit dog too with great hips, eyes and patellas.

A lot of Irish 'pet breeder' dogs are well distant from the mainstream lines today -- with some going back to some of the now-lost 'good' genetic lines -- and would seem good candidates for such a scheme -- and many are fully IKC registered.

I see the KC has launched a programme to bring in unregistered dogs as well that would eventually give recognition to offspring as fully registered.

I think breeders will need to be far more open minded about ways forward that are more inclusive -- especially if they wish to avoid what will otherwise no doubt be an eventual necessity to outcross to other breeds (a far longer term effort too to address health problems).

 

[Davecav]

From what you are saying I deduct that more people who do not have show lines should scan their dogs and heart test, (if not doing so now) and these dogs should then be bred from. Looked at logically we don't need to rely on show breeders and show dogs to take Cavaliers forward? In fact most pet dogs won't come from show breeders. They are only a small portion of Cavaliers across the country/countries.

 

[sins]

It's beginning to happen over here.
I just heard this week that another small scale commercial breeder is going the scanning/heart testing route and has been sourcing young stock from the UK/Irish show and non show lines.
Interesting times...
Sins

 

[Karlin]

It would be sadly ironic if, after years of complaining by show breeders that pet market breeders sell dogs of lower health quality, it ends up being many pet/commercial breeders who - especially if pet buyers demand it -- end up testing and following protocols in far greater numbers than show breeder/club members. Many of the pet breeders (and many strongly pro-health pet owners) are people who at one time were involved in showing or national clubs and left because of the bitchy and anti-health, pro-winning politics anyway. Many stayed with the breed because they loved cavaliers and some because they wanted to focus on health without the sniping from formal club members. They are hardly large scale, poor quality puppy farmers. But regardless -- many of these people, even the more questionable, undoubtedly could bring in dogs with greater genetic diversity with good scans/hearts at a time when the breed needs this lifeline.

Commercial pressure from the puppy buyer -- and a greater willingness to be influenced by it -- could mean a better quality/better health puppy option may come from the broader market, not the bulk of show breeders. I think many of these breeders, if they started scanning, might find some clear dogs very valuable for the breed, too. As for looks -- well, these pass in fads anyway and anyone with a dog with Sm or in the horrible grip of final stage congestive heart failure will tell any show breeder they'd rather their dog have a head that doesn't quite suit the show ring or a tail carried too high, than endure the suffering of these conditions.

Almost *none* of my wide circle of friends with other breeds and crosses has had to go through the heart-breaking experience almost all of us with cavaliers have gone or will go through -- of *as a norm with this breed*, watching our dogs coughing, passing out, lying exhausted from minimal exertion and struggling on with weeks or months or even years of cardiac failure symptoms that could be minimised if breeders, including some shamefully (or shamelessly) in club committee positions, would stop breeding underage cavaliers, stop ignoring the fact that vet testing hearts is inadequate for breeding, and share results on both breeding age and OLDER dogs whose later heart history would help other breeders make better breeding decisions. And then there are those who won't scan, misinform others on results, or use dogs they know have scanned poorly.

Maybe the KC should be starting with programme of scanning select cavaliers from non-show lines, and work to bring in more of these non-club breeders to focus on breeding for health, rather than contemplating experimental outcrossing at this time.