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Why does a site called 'cavalier health' (UK version)...
- Thread starter Karlin
- Start date
Yes, this is what I was referring to:
And:
"
If both these people knew of the fact that the Ingpens owned a Rollo sibling then both knew that such a letter was not impartial, unbiased, blah blah blah.
That some attacked me, Margaret and many others for questioning Ingpen's 'impartial' position, and that he then came out defending it and STILL never mentioned he owned a sibling...
well I guess some view the whole situation as 'only being about dogs'.
I would lose my job were I to publish a story strongly promoting a view, with a close personal connection and involvement left undisclosed -- where certain perceptions could have a direct personal or friends/family benefit -- and where I questioned another professional's skills to the benefit of myself, a friend or relative...
And:
"
If both these people knew of the fact that the Ingpens owned a Rollo sibling then both knew that such a letter was not impartial, unbiased, blah blah blah.
That some attacked me, Margaret and many others for questioning Ingpen's 'impartial' position, and that he then came out defending it and STILL never mentioned he owned a sibling...
well I guess some view the whole situation as 'only being about dogs'.
I would lose my job were I to publish a story strongly promoting a view, with a close personal connection and involvement left undisclosed -- where certain perceptions could have a direct personal or friends/family benefit -- and where I questioned another professional's skills to the benefit of myself, a friend or relative...
meljoy
Well-known member
A message to Bet.......
Can I just say I admire you for admitting you now feel that what you originally said was wrong.
It takes a lot of guts to admit when we're wrong and I take my hat off to you for your honesty.....
I hope other people take note of this and think about what they have said in the past and re-examine their opinions.
I agree with Pauline that this is not in the past but very much in the present and the more correct info we get the better.
Mel
Can I just say I admire you for admitting you now feel that what you originally said was wrong.
It takes a lot of guts to admit when we're wrong and I take my hat off to you for your honesty.....
I hope other people take note of this and think about what they have said in the past and re-examine their opinions.
I agree with Pauline that this is not in the past but very much in the present and the more correct info we get the better.
Mel
Why Does a Site Called Cavalier Health (UK Version)....
Meljoy,thank you so much for your Post, it has made my day.
I have made a number of Enemies because of what I am saying now, hopefully the Folk I miscalled in the Past ,understand that at the Time I was believing what I said, but that is no excuse for saying what I said .
Having re-read some of the things I was saying ,I am so ashamed of my self.
Just to say . I am so pleased that my Letter has been Published in this Week's Dog World's Letter Page agreeing with everything that Carol has said in her Letter to DW the Previous Week.
Meljoy,thank you so much for your Post, it has made my day.
I have made a number of Enemies because of what I am saying now, hopefully the Folk I miscalled in the Past ,understand that at the Time I was believing what I said, but that is no excuse for saying what I said .
Having re-read some of the things I was saying ,I am so ashamed of my self.
Just to say . I am so pleased that my Letter has been Published in this Week's Dog World's Letter Page agreeing with everything that Carol has said in her Letter to DW the Previous Week.
chloe92us
Well-known member
Bet, I have to agree with Mel. You and I have never been "cyber buddies", we've disagreed many times, and probably have a personality conflict, but I do respect the fact that you looked at all sides, read as much as you could about SM and its research, and admitted that your initial opinion may have been wrong.
We have to all keep in mind that others may be doing the same thing.
We have to all keep in mind that others may be doing the same thing.
Margaret C
Well-known member
Well, I have slept on it and I am still angry, although logically this is no different from all the manipulative cover ups that have been part of the cavalier breeding scene for years.
A person who broadcast Dr Ingpen's email was threatening to sue the owner of a SM cavalier back in 1999.
That is how these sleazy people kept the lid on the problem for so many years.
The retired vet probably did not know about the litter sister, she is just an example of how cynically these leading breeders make fools of nice people.
That some attacked me, Margaret and many others for questioning Ingpen's 'impartial' position, and that he then came out defending it and STILL never mentioned he owned a sibling...
...
The Doctor is not an honourable man.
At no time did he indicate that he had a very real interest in the reputation of that breeder, in fact in his article he was at pains to suggest he was an impartial observer on the periphery of the cavalier world.
When I read his article I emailed to ask if he was saying that when he looked at the BIS cavalier's scan he had not seen a syrinx.
His answer was......
"I can neither confirm or deny the presence of a Syrinx on the MRI you refer to. In my opinion the imaging was inadequate to make any clear diagnosis.
Murray Ingpen"
I think enough UK breeders have looked at their cavalier's scans by now to know that a syrinx is obvious enough to see, especially when it was so bad that the Neurologist said the fourteen month old dog should never be used for breeding
I have scans from both the older MRI the Skerritts used and the current machine. I also have the films with select images. In two of the scans, one old, one new, a dog had a small syrinx. It was VERY easy to see. And as many pointed out, including Mr Skerritt, the films are not nearly as high a resolution as the actual digital scans from which a diagnosis is made. One would assume the person who wrote the foundational UK text on using and interpreting MRI -- Mr Skerritt -- and who is involved on the BVA MRI interpretation scheme for the UK CLub and KC, would be able to read a digital MRI and give an accurate diagnosis, having viewed over a thousand scans now of cavaliers? I wonder how many cavalier MRIs Dr Ingpen has viewed? I wonder if the Ingpens MRI at all? Especially as they own a Rollo sibling...?
Interestingly, the same people who have publicised the letter continue, and their friends continue, to go to Mr Skerritt for very low cost MRI scans. I have never heard a single one of these people express any concern about the quality or interpretation of their scans or go elsewhere to have them done or reinterpreted. And the clubs keep working with Chestergates/Mr Skerritt for scans on breeding dogs, presumably a type of scan for which breeders want utmost accuracy in equipment and reading.
How odd that of all those hundreds of scans done, only one, the one for a sibling of a dog they own, implying at least some contact and a relationship with the breeder, could not be interpreted. And a very strange way of wording things... in which actually one does not say anything at all except admit to being unable to read the scan, yet allowing it to be assumed to mean in the letter on the Cavalier Health UK site, that there was no syrinx.
Interestingly, the same people who have publicised the letter continue, and their friends continue, to go to Mr Skerritt for very low cost MRI scans. I have never heard a single one of these people express any concern about the quality or interpretation of their scans or go elsewhere to have them done or reinterpreted. And the clubs keep working with Chestergates/Mr Skerritt for scans on breeding dogs, presumably a type of scan for which breeders want utmost accuracy in equipment and reading.
How odd that of all those hundreds of scans done, only one, the one for a sibling of a dog they own, implying at least some contact and a relationship with the breeder, could not be interpreted. And a very strange way of wording things... in which actually one does not say anything at all except admit to being unable to read the scan, yet allowing it to be assumed to mean in the letter on the Cavalier Health UK site, that there was no syrinx.
Why Does a Site Called " Cavalier Health" ( UK Version)...
Chloe,
It's not that my inital Opinion May have been wrong about SM, it was so wrong.
I sure am paying the price now, about saying how wrong I was in those early days of SM making it's appearance in our Cavalier Breed.
I never knew there could be so much Hatred in the Cavalier World,but I do understand now what Margaret ,Carol and Karlin have had to Thole,(Scots Word for having to endure).
I know now about the saying, When youve lost the Argument ,you stop Talking about the Issues ,but go for the People instead.
It sure looks like it.
Chloe,
It's not that my inital Opinion May have been wrong about SM, it was so wrong.
I sure am paying the price now, about saying how wrong I was in those early days of SM making it's appearance in our Cavalier Breed.
I never knew there could be so much Hatred in the Cavalier World,but I do understand now what Margaret ,Carol and Karlin have had to Thole,(Scots Word for having to endure).
I know now about the saying, When youve lost the Argument ,you stop Talking about the Issues ,but go for the People instead.
It sure looks like it.
Dr Ingpen's very odd way of phrasing things and clearly he calls Mr Skerritt's work and ability into question here. It is absolutely shameful that he has said such things and yet never revealed he and his wife owned a Rollo sibling (indeed all he says is that he lives 'on the periphery' of the cavalier world' -- an odd way to describe being married to a breed club committee member, show breeder, and owner of numerous cavaliers...).
Of course, the breeder involved bred Rollo many times AFTER the diagnosis, as can be easily verified from UK puppy registrations, so I guess this is the 'responsible action'... taken afterwards:
How useful to the breeder and Dr Ingpen that this scan has never been presented to be reinterpreted... surely the first thing anyone would have done.
Of course, the breeder involved bred Rollo many times AFTER the diagnosis, as can be easily verified from UK puppy registrations, so I guess this is the 'responsible action'... taken afterwards:
How useful to the breeder and Dr Ingpen that this scan has never been presented to be reinterpreted... surely the first thing anyone would have done.
Why Does a Site Called "Cavalier Health" (UK Version)...
I could do with a wee bit of advice about this, I have E-Mailed the Owner of the Site we are discussing yesterday, asking that my Name be Removed , where it was mentioned about the Cavalier and the request from Jemima Harrison for a Cavalier with Heart Trouble and the PDE TV Film Program, also my Waffle that I had also Spouted in an other Article that I now know to be untrue.
Just checked both are still on the Web Site, what can I do about this.
Any -body any ideas.
I could do with a wee bit of advice about this, I have E-Mailed the Owner of the Site we are discussing yesterday, asking that my Name be Removed , where it was mentioned about the Cavalier and the request from Jemima Harrison for a Cavalier with Heart Trouble and the PDE TV Film Program, also my Waffle that I had also Spouted in an other Article that I now know to be untrue.
Just checked both are still on the Web Site, what can I do about this.
Any -body any ideas.
Margaret C
Well-known member
Bet,
I am not very computer savvy, so I don't know how long it would take to remove these articles.
People can get very busy, so I do think, to be fair, you should give the owner of the website a little time.
Why not write a letter, keeping a copy, and give him one week's notice to withdraw those items?
If it was me I would tell him that those articles no longer represented my view of the situation and he no longer had my permission to display them.
Margaret C
Well-known member
http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1496
Post number 3
This has to be one of the funniest things I have read in a long time.
Post number 3
This has to be one of the funniest things I have read in a long time.
Why Does a Site Called " Cavalier Health " ( UK VERSION )...
Thanks Margaret for the Advice, I had already E-Mailed the Owner of the Site in Question, so I will now send him a written Letter.
I think others on the List will maybe the Distress I am being caused by what I had said in those earlier Days,when I Spouting a Load of Rubbish . that my Articles have not been removed , .
Thanks Margaret for the Advice, I had already E-Mailed the Owner of the Site in Question, so I will now send him a written Letter.
I think others on the List will maybe the Distress I am being caused by what I had said in those earlier Days,when I Spouting a Load of Rubbish . that my Articles have not been removed , .
Margaret C
Well-known member
Well, it sounds as if that is the company where the writer feels she belongs. Most people have more modest expectations.
Why Does a Site Called" Cavalier Health" (UK Version)....
I would like to say Again that on the Cavalier Health ,Messages of Support, that the Owner of this Site most certainly does NOT have my Permission to Publish my Comments .
I want them to be Removed immediately.
Also my Comment about the Cavalier suffering from Heart Trouble for the PDE TV Film.
Karlin mentioned about an update to the PDE TV Program, I hope I could be able to give my thoughts about the Cavalier Health Problems for this forth- coming Program, now that I realize that my Remarks were so insulting to Jemima Harrison after her first TV Film.
I would like to say Again that on the Cavalier Health ,Messages of Support, that the Owner of this Site most certainly does NOT have my Permission to Publish my Comments .
I want them to be Removed immediately.
Also my Comment about the Cavalier suffering from Heart Trouble for the PDE TV Film.
Karlin mentioned about an update to the PDE TV Program, I hope I could be able to give my thoughts about the Cavalier Health Problems for this forth- coming Program, now that I realize that my Remarks were so insulting to Jemima Harrison after her first TV Film.
Margaret C
Well-known member
This article continues to be shown on the CavalierHealth website. It seems outdated and discredited views are to be left for newcomers of the breed to read even, as in Bet's case, when the author has asked for the article to be removed.
Written by a Human Rheumatologist, Dr Ingpen's "I live on the periphery of the Cavalier world" article, was praised as "a true perspective from an unbiased source who has expertise in this subject"
His article, written in August 2008, was sent to every cavalier list & forum and published in the Dog World Breed notes.
This was despite the fact that the group of top breeders, responsible for the widespread publication of the Doctor's views, knew that in Spring 2006 the Ingpen's had bought the full sister to the SM affected, widely used stud dog shown in Pedigree Dog's Exposed, and so he was scarcely the impartial onlooker he claimed.
Dr Ingpen said "I also had the opportunity to view the MRI referred to in the BBC programme. I think the images were poor, inadequate and certainly not diagnostic anatomically"
Mr Skerritt's scan was perfectly readable. I have always been puzzled how anyone, let alone a medical man, could look at that image and not identify the syrinx.
It was large enough to make me wince, considering that this was the image from a fourteen month dog.
Reminds me of my old Mum's saying........"There are none so blind that will not see"
I'm sure that this is a thread that will be revisited very often.
If the owners of this site are sincere in their expressed wish to move forward, then I'm sure they will revise the contents very soon. A little more specific information on SM & MVD would perhaps be helpful to those looking for information on the breed.
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Bet's ownership of the article, as she is the author, is fully and unequivocally protected under UK and EU and US copyright law.
For them to leave up an article they do not own the rights to is an actionable violation of copyright law, and a very straightforward violation.
If they are wise, the owners of the site will pull the article in compliance with Bet's wishes, immediately.
There are many solicitors who would be delighted to take on a case they'd be so certain of winning. As Bet has clearly expressed her distress several times in public forums on this particular matter, it would also be quite easy to provide evidence of the kind of frustration and distress caused to the plaintiff that courts generally award well.
I have suggested Bet talk to a few solicitors. An out of court settlement that might wipe out the famed PR fund would be a reasonable expectation going on past experience.
For them to leave up an article they do not own the rights to is an actionable violation of copyright law, and a very straightforward violation.
If they are wise, the owners of the site will pull the article in compliance with Bet's wishes, immediately.
There are many solicitors who would be delighted to take on a case they'd be so certain of winning. As Bet has clearly expressed her distress several times in public forums on this particular matter, it would also be quite easy to provide evidence of the kind of frustration and distress caused to the plaintiff that courts generally award well.
I have suggested Bet talk to a few solicitors. An out of court settlement that might wipe out the famed PR fund would be a reasonable expectation going on past experience.