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And sometimes we have bad luck

Bruce H

Bruce H

Well-known member
Got some bad news today :(

We bred our ruby girl Isis a while back. Her due date, based on 63 days from date of first breeding, was last Wednesday. At about 4 weeks we did an ultrasound that showed 2 puppies. About 1 1/2 weeks ago we did an x-ray that also showed 2 puppies. The vet made the comment at the time of the x-ray that the bones didn't look completely calcified, but that she may be running a bit late.

Well, we became more and more concerned when there were no signs of labor this weekend, so Kris took Isis in for an ultrasound yesterday. The ultrasound showed no heartbeats. They did a c-section and both puppies were dead and appeared to have been dead for at least a week :( The vet said it was good that we brought her in when we did; she could have become very sick or worse. In fact, he was surprised that she showed no signs of not feeling good. He cleaned Isis out and checked her completely for any problems and said she was in excellent condition.

Kris asked if there were any signs that might indicate what happened, but there were none. He said it may just have been a bad combination of the dam & sire, or the progesterone level may have dropped, or a dozen other things beyond our control. At any rate, he has suggested that the next time we breed her that we check her progesterone level every 2 weeks and more often when she starts getting close to her date. That's going to be very expensive and we have some tough decisions to make before she comes into season again. After all, Isis was Kris' Christmas present to me 3 years ago.

I guess the good news is that Isis came through the surgery just fine and they expect no problems. In fact, by the time Kris got home, Isis was feeling well enough to give me a good lick on the face; oh no, DOG GERMS :lol: This morning she seemed fine too, but we have to keep a close eye on her for the next couple weeks. So now we baby her for a while.

Oh well, we win a few and we loose a few. This is why we tell people not to go into breeding for the money but for the love of the breed. While this is a big dissapointment for us, it would never stop us from breeding. Years ago someone I have a deep respect for told me he could tell we would be dedicated breeders because we didn't let a few setbacks stop us. I always remembered that.
 
Oh Bruce. What sad news but am so glad Isis is OK. In the scheme of things that is the most important thing. I have a friend who breeds pugs and I hear of all she goes thru to breed some of her girls and I wonder if this is all worth it or is there some reason those girls should not be bred. It is a tuff decision I am sure. Sending gentle hugs for Isis and her lost babies. Do you think dogs know and grieve these losses. I know once they are born they do but I wonder if like in this situation they are aware of the loss. There sense of motherhood seems so strong. Take care.
 
Sorry to hear you lost the litter. :( I'm so glad Isis is OK! How much does a progesterone test cost?
 
As you said Bruce...good news, bad news. So glad Isis is okay! Sorry she lost the pups. Now you have a really good heads up for the future.

I think I will refer those who want to breed to this thread so they can know what can happen. Especially as this has happened to a respected and knowledgeable breeder.

Give Isis lots of hugs and kisses for us.
 
I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm glad Isis is doing well though. Poor girl. I wonder how they handle that emotionally. Does she seem any different?
 
Oh Bruce and Kris I am so sorry, I am glad that Isis is okay though, sometimes they say there is a reason for things.... :(
 
I am very sorry to hear about Isis. I hope that she gets to feeling well soon :flwr: :flwr: :flwr:
 
Poor Bruce and Kris!! The stress of the whole situation must have been difficult to deal with. I'm glad Isis was taken care of, though, and she should be fine.

Has she had other litters before without difficulty? Perhaps this was just a one time thing; a natural accident. Then again, I know several people for whom pregnancy is just not something their bodies can handle. Maybe Isis can adopt!! ;)

I hope you let us know what you decide to do!
 
Thank you all so very much for the kind comments. I know I shouldn't be such a softie, but this really bothered me. At least this is a lot easier than having a puppy born alive, then die a few days later.

This was Isis' first litter. We had kind of hoped for more puppies, but were very happy with the two. So no way of knowing if this was a fluke or if she will just always have issues. I am quite sure we will try again regardless of cost, I was just feeling a little depressed for a while.

The progesterone tests run around $85 each. Not sure how many we would need without going into more detail with the reproductive vet, but I can't imagine more than 6 or 8 over the whole pregnancy. So it's manageable. Kris has also been talking to a number of breeders more experienced that us and is getting a lot of good advice. We have a lot of research to do over the next 4 months or so.

We will have to wait and see how she handles this emotionally; we never lost an entire litter before. Star had a false pregnancy once and had no problems, but then we had a 6 week old litter at the time that she decided to adopt and nurse. Isis has no sign at all of milk and her nipples barely changed, so maybe she won't even understand that she was pregnant, especially since this was her first.

Time will tell how she recovers from this, but I'm quite sure she will do fine. I'll keep everyone informed.
 
Bruce I'm so sorry. I'm glad Isis is okay.....I'm sure she'll have plenty of extra loving from everyone. So sorry about the pups.....I'm sending good thoughts your way.
 
Well, Isis is doing just fine. We're having a heck of a time keeping her quiet, don't want to pop out stiches. She didn't seem to go through any kind of noticeable depression, I'm sure because she didn't have any puppies.

That darn Star, though! She had been gaining some weight lately and just about the time we were busy worrying about Isis, Star's nipples suddenly changed and her milk came in. This was about 63 days after she was in season! She was not bred because she needed a year off, but we thought maybe we had an accidental breeding even though we are SO careful. Just to be sure, we took her in for an ultrasound and she wasn't pregnant; thank God! That was her second false pregnancy; she is our best mom by far and she really wants to have puppies. I really wish she wouldn't do that because she now wants to go in our bedroom where she knows she goes when she has a litter.
 
I'm glad to hear poor Isis is doing better -- what a relief that you have her safe and sound with you but such a tragedy with the pups. :( Even though I know a false pregnancy must be hard on a dog (and they sure are strange!) I had to smile at Star's trying to go into your room in expectation of puppies. :)
 
Oh Bruce and Kris, how terribly sad for you both and for poor Isis. Although it seems she has just carried on and it is you humans that understand and feel sad for the loss.

I suppose the only thing that gets you through is thinking that it must be like humans and sometimes, for some natural reason, it just isn't a pregnancy that lasts and is successful. Not long after the safe delivery of my first child a lady I knew lost her baby at 32 weeks - no reason for it at all, as far as the doctors could tell, the baby's little heart just stopped beating.

I'm sure, if you decide to try again with Isis, that everything will be fine the next time.

Hugs to you all.
x
 
Is it thought that a pregnant bitch can 'kickstart' other bitches into a false pregnancy? I would imagine the scent of hormones could do something like that. Just thinking about this, as Star's false pregnancy pretty much mirrored Isis' pregancny.
 
We think they can be brought into a false pregnancy by another pregnant bitch, although Star is the only one of our girls that has ever done this. As I mentioned earlier, the last time she did this there was already a litter of puppies on the ground and she decided to start nursing them! One of these days when I have a little time I'm going to do some research into it, but I think she does it just to get more food . :lol:
 
LMAO Poor Star not being able to go into Mummy and Daddy's bedroom :D Maxx hates our bedroom door being shut as he thinks it's HIS room as well! We have to close the door though or Charlie will pee on the bed :yuk:

Bruce & Kris, I am so sorry about poor little Isis & her pups :( . Give her a big hug from me, poor little love :flwr:

This is actually quite weird as when my breeder mated her 2nd youngest bitch last year she only did so because she wanted a pup and so did I. She only ever breeds when she wants pups herself :D. The poor baby was expecting two puppies and both Diane and I were getting really excited but sadly Mum went into labour over a week too early and lost both her pups as well. Nature can be so wonderful, yet so cruel too, sometimes :(
 
Karlin said:
Is it thought that a pregnant bitch can 'kickstart' other bitches into a false pregnancy? I would imagine the scent of hormones could do something like that. Just thinking about this, as Star's false pregnancy pretty much mirrored Isis' pregancny.
Click to expand...

I wanted to bring this back up because I found the answer to what causes a false pregnancy. The answer came on a National Geographic special last night called "In the Womb: Animals".

They said they think it comes from the dog's distant relative, the wolf. In a wolf pack, the female is the one that does a lot (all?) the hunting. When she has a litter, she can't leave the pups long enough to hunt for food, so other females in the pack will go into a false pregnancy to produce milk and help nurse pups while she is out hunting. That would explain Star nursing that litter of puppies a while back when the mom was starting to wean them.

BTW, that whole "In the Womb" series has been absolutely fascinating!! Sunday night they did the 2 hour show on Multiples. They focussed on 3 women: one with twins, one with triplets and one with quadruplets. Just unbelievable! And the one last night (Animals) followed an elephant, a dog and a dolphin. If anyone has a chance to watch reruns of either of these, I would highly recommend it. It's on the National Geographic Channel.
 
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