Confused

[Margaret C]

WHO said they didn't want pet owners to know about these debilitating diseases?

Well, I would agree with that statement.

I worked for 6 years to get breeders to realise that SM was a problem in cavaliers. I was accused by other health representatives of 'ruining the breed'

I saw a handful of foresighted breeders scanning, and losing heart because there were not enough stud dogs with good results they could use.

I experienced breed club committee members sabotaging the efforts to research the problem.

I saw breeders that had told me about their dogs with symptoms, stand up at seminars and say they had never seen it, never bred it.

I saw breeders putting their own interest first, and breed club officials put the interests of the breeders, and the clubs, before that of the dogs.

I listened to breeders say "how will we sell our puppies"

Even now pet buyers in the UK are being met with denials that SM is a problem in cavaliers.
From what I hear the denial is even worse among many breeders in other countries.

Sandy I know that you were one of the few breeders that scanned your dogs at great expense and effort in the USA and I admire you for it, but unfortunately, from what I read on the other cavalier lists, I don't think you are typical of the top show breeders in your country.

 

[Margaret C]

Dear Elspeth,

Thank you for your post. Wise words from you as usual, but I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree over some things.

But,things are different now. Every breeder knows full well that they must MRI scan their stock, of their own volition, sooner rather than later, otherwise the matter will be taken out of their hands.

I think we have already reached the stage where that will happen.
It will perhaps prevent clever & experienced breeders planning matings based on their knowledge of lines, but will ensure that health has to be factored in by those that had not considered it a priority before.

it is a fact that many of the Top Breeders are refusing to accept an unscanned bitch for mating..

Many of the top breeders? I could believe that is possible of one or two, but nothing I have heard suggests that it is yet common practice.

So, IMO, this would seem to be a good time to regroup and consider what new approach could be made to convince the remaining breeders to get onboard...

Unfortunately I have become convinced that only outside scrutiny, and the knowledge that outrageous disregard of codes of best practice will no longer remain unremarked, will ensure that the breeding guidelines are not 'fudged'

My real worry about this constant 'picking on' breeders is the effect it surely must have on Cavalier Pet owners.
It must be very hard to come to terms with some of the posts decrying cavalier breeding practices when you have lately become a proud owner and welcomed one into your family.

New owners must be 'on tenterhooks' watching and waiting for something to go wrong.
That is surely not fair...

That is true, but I believe better a worried owner than a suffering dog.

Of course, every pet owner should be aware that symptoms can arise at any time, but it is extremely unusual for baby puppies to demonstrate such symptoms, and I find it distressing to read frantic posts from new owners worried sick about some perfectly normal puppy behaviour.

That is not fair either.

Unfortunately it is not that unusual for puppies to demonstrate SM symptoms

 

[Karlin]

I haven't seen many frantic posts on SM from panicky new puppy owners, either here or on any of the other predominantly pet-owner boards or lists. There are occasional worried posts here, and these almost always do relate to an issue that does need to be checked by a vet. So the worried owner is generally right that they need to be worried, and need to get medical advice, but my own advice over and over is that there are many things that need to be eliminated first before a vet would refer to a neurologist, and many more likely reasons for some of the signs seen than SM, especially in a young pup.

More often, people post here saying they have SM as a background concern any time they see their dog scratching. But that is the reality in the breed -- that one must watch for possible signs just as one watches for signs of heart problems. There would be more frantic posts here about housetraining accidents than fears about SM.

The larger problem remains that most of the time, owners of dogs with potential symptoms are told the dog almost certainly has a disk or allergy problem and several months or years of pain pass before the dog is correctly diagnosed. This board is full of owners whose concerns were dismissed by their vets and their breeders until their dog reached such a clear point of pain that they sought a specialist. This board is also full of people who note the only reason they learned about this condition was either PDE or information posted here. That indicates the general lack of awareness amongst pet owners and vets still, and an unwillingness amongst most breeders to discuss this as a health issue with pet buyers (unlike MVD). One breeder health site still claims the vast majority of cavaliers are unlikely to ever get SM -- yet once again I note that breeders themselves have posted to Cavalier Chat that the neurologists doing club-supported scanning days are consistently stating about 50% of these younger breeding age dogs *have syrinxes*.

 

[Bet]

Sins,

look at www.cavaliers.co.uk

There is an Australian Cavalier Pictured on the Breed notes this week, and you will see what I am trying to explain.

Dr C Rusbridge ,has also mentioned about the Minaturizing of Cavaliers.

If this is what the Cavalier Breeders want now because there is the chance of this type winning in the the Show Ring, and the bottom line is, this is where the money will come from, Stud Fees, and the Breeding Bitches, how will most of the Cavalier Breeders ever change their attitude.

Sadly I was told this by a Cavalier Breeder, this is where the COFFEE is!!!

Can I also mention that there is reports of many Cavaliers being Heart Tested in the past fortnight at Cavalier Shows on the Cavalier Chat Forum, this is the big BUT,and the $64,000 question ,if some of those Cavaliers are young, will the Breeders wait and not Breed from those Cavaliers till they are 2.5 years of age,and also find out what about the Health Status of their Grand-Parents.

As the Researchers into the MVD Problem, this is the only chance the Cavalier Breed has of having any Future.

 

[Ruth]

Well Bet, whilst I have been concerned at seeing a few long backed short legged dogs cropping up, this chap certainly is not one of them. He is exquisite imo and has the most wonderful turn of stifle which is perhaps giving you (photographically) the impression you are getting.

 

[Bet]

I have just noticed on Cavalier Chat the owner of the Cavalier I mentioned looking different from what Cavaliers looked like years ago ,demanding an apology,

An apology for what, saying that Cavaliers don't look like the Pargeters, Crisdigs, Kindrums ,Maxholts .

Would any Cavalier Breeder tell me that To-day's Cavaliers are the same as those Cavaliers I have mentioned.

Since I have never heard of the owner of the Cavalier in question, I will say sorry, but I do hope I will get a reply from Cavalier Breeders of to-day's Cavaliers saying that they are exactly the same as they were 30-40 years ago.
.
If there are no answers to this Post,I will take it that the Cavalier Breeders agree that Cavaliers of to-day are different to those of the time I have mentioned.

 

[sins]

I agree to a certain extent Bet, some cavaliers are starting to evolve into real "toys" and others still firmly retain all their spaniel characteristics.You could hand the CKCS club book of champions to 20 random people and ask them to pick the cavalier that appeals to them the most. My inexperienced finger would land on Tameline Northern Dancer...others might say something totally different.The appearance of the breed has changed over the decades but surely there's no real exaggeration,just a more refined type of cavalier??
Yes head shapes seem to have changed.I had disregarded the idea that head shape influenced the development of CM/SM but that link may have prompted me to think again so I suppose it's reasonable to keep an open mind.Again it's down to the researchers to explore the relevance.
I looked at the results of Dr Darke's early MVD survey Bet and it painted a poor picture.You're right! 30% of dogs aged 2-4 and 50% of dogs aged 5-6.
However I'm not convinced that things are that bad now.There have been hundreds of cavaliers with a broad range of ages tested over the last year or so on Club days.Surely these are now the relevant samples that people should be looking at.These are the current crop of cavaliers bred by people who show and are mainly club members.Hopefully the statistics will show a significant improvement.
As more and more people avail of the MVD testing at shows,it provides a platform to move forward from and I think Bet give it two or three years and give breeders a chance to make the system work for them.
maybe it's time to take some of the pressure off people? If you keep flogging the good horse along with the idle one, maybe it'll simply lose the will to work?
Sins

 

[Yorkysue]

Bet

I must say that the Australian dog you pointed out is the most beautiful tricolour, Even to my untrained eye he isn't long in the back, short in the legs, or sloping at his back end. He puts my old boy to shame. (LOL) And how can you say that heads are getting smaller? How big a head do you want on this dog? He's gorgeous.

 

[Bet]

I will reiterate again, I was ,in my opinion mentioning how the Cavalier in question, was to me like other Cavaliers of to -day ,not like the ones of 30,years ago.

Our Cavaliers looked like Cavaliers , with a Doggy look about them ,even although they Bitches, In my opinion the Cavalier Dogs just don't look like Dogs , many look like Cavalier Bitches.

 

[Bet]

Should have said,at least I have got Cavalier Breeders talking about the Type of To-days' Cavaliers, has it changed from 20-30 years ago.

So all the Remarks about me will be well worth while,if this Topic will be being discussed.

 

[chloe92us]

There's no question that show dogs of today look different than dogs of yesterday. I think it has more to do with the preference of judges. We still have lots of Cavaliers who look like the dogs of yesterday; but they are considered "poor breds". I have always had a problem with Cavaliers being considered a "toy" breed. IMO, they should be in the non-sporting class.

 

[Ruth]

What is happening to the Cavalier Breed today, just saw some Photos on another Cavalier Site.

I have mentioned about to-day's Cavaliers having Smaller Heads, but now they seem to have Longer Backs, Shorter Legs, and their Back Ends seem to be Sloping downwards like German Shepherds.

Is this the type of Cavalier that is catching the Judges Eye for winning in the Show Ring.

This is part of your post that I was answering Bet as I assumed that is what you were referring to.

 

[WoodHaven]

I will reiterate again, I was ,in my opinion mentioning how the Cavalier in question, was to me like other Cavaliers of to -day ,not like the ones of 30,years ago.

Our Cavaliers looked like Cavaliers , with a Doggy look about them ,even although they Bitches, In my opinion the Cavalier Dogs just don't look like Dogs , many look like Cavalier Bitches.

You are saying that dogs today look different that dogs of 30 years ago-- You are saying over the course of 10 generations, that things have changed? Look back over human development over the course of 10 generations (that is about 200 years) -- even humans evolve in looks, size due to genes, nutrition, advances in medicine etc....
All animals evolve -- I wouldn't say that the pictures of spaniel type dogs in the famous pictures were any less miniaturized than todays cavalier spaniel.
I was just at a cavalier specialty-- I didn't have any problem telling the bitches from the dogs.

 

[RodRussell]

There's no question that show dogs of today look different than dogs of yesterday. I think it has more to do with the preference of judges. We still have lots of Cavaliers who look like the dogs of yesterday; but they are considered "poor breds".

I can think of three major reasons for the "evolution" of "the look". They all start with the letters A, K, and C.

I think in large part, at least in the USA, the problem is that there is a higher percentage of ignorant and intellectually lazy judges. Until 1996, in the USA nearly all judges of Cavaliers were or had been Cavalier breeders. Since then, most Cavalier judges had never even seen a Cavalier prior to 1995, and most also are not even Cavalier fanciers, much less actual breeders.

This is due to AKC recognition of the breed in 1995. In 1996, almost instantly, a horde of AKC toy group judges, who had never seen Cavaliers before their very brief judges' seminar on the breed, began to judge Cavaliers in the AKC conformation rings around the country. A lot of them either did not know the breed standard or chose to ignore it. These judges had been used to trimmed and heavily combed coats, short-haired paws, neated up ears, etc. The Cavalier breed standard must have seemed full of typographical errors to these AKC judges.

And then, with AKC recognition came the professional handlers. There were no professional handlers of Cavaliers prior to AKC recognition. These people, who handle several breeds, began the trimming, the kneeling while in the ring, the shoving and tripping of competitors, and the dirty tricks to hide faults.

Finally, came the AKC-only breeders of other breeds, who likewise had never seen a Cavalier prior to 1995 or 1996, who decided to switch to breeding the new money-breed.

These three groups -- AKC judges, AKC's professional handlers, and AKC-only breeders -- brought with them their ignorance about the breed and their disbelief in the breed standard. They have changed "the look" radically.

Just another reason why AKC recognition of the CKCS is the worst thing ever to happen to the breed in the USA. (And this goes without mentioning the AKC's ignorance about early-onset MVD and its parent club's decision to keep the MVD breeding protocol a secret from AKC breeders.)

 

[RodRussell]

You are saying that dogs today look different that dogs of 30 years ago-- You are saying over the course of 10 generations, that things have changed? Look back over human development over the course of 10 generations (that is about 200 years) -- even humans evolve in looks, size due to genes, nutrition, advances in medicine etc....

If breeders and judges had tried to follow the breed standard, which has barely changed in 30 years, there would not be as much change as their has been. There is a big difference between humans and purebreds, and it is the breed standards.

 

[RodRussell]

As more and more people avail of the MVD testing at shows,it provides a platform to move forward from and I think Bet give it two or three years and give breeders a chance to make the system work for them.
maybe it's time to take some of the pressure off people? If you keep flogging the good horse along with the idle one, maybe it'll simply lose the will to work?
Sins

Testing for heart murmurs alone is a waste of time. There may be some incremental improvement, but until these breeders start following the MVD breeding protocol, they deserve to be "flogged".

And, since AKC recognition of the breed in 1995, most new Cavalier breeders in the USA don't even know about the seriousness of early-onset mitral valve disease in the CKCS. So they don't test for it at all.

 

[Karen and Ruby]

Boy oh boy these poor babies are in trouble

 

[RodRussell]

The only people I know that owned cavalier 40 years ago (most of my life) were breeders.

My family has owned Cavaliers for the past 40 years. And, we've never bred them.

 

[RodRussell]

WHO said they didn't want pet owners to know about these debilitating diseases?

The ACKCSC refuses to publish the MVD breeding protocol, which was designed to eliminate early-onset MVD in as few as three generations. Most all Cavalier breeders in the USA now are AKC-only breeders, and their primary traditional source of information about health issues is from the parent club. The obvious conclusion is that this breed's AKC parent club doesn't want pet owners and breeders to know about the MVD breeding protocol.

Here is the entirety of what the ACKCSC website has to say about MVD:

"Mitral valve disease (MVD) is a degenerative condition that affects the mitral valve of the heart. Inevitably, it results in a compromise of the circulation and heart enlargement. This can lead to heart failure and death. It is important that your Cavalier be checked annually by your veterinarian for any heart murmur that could mean the valve is being compromised. If a murmur is diagnosed, do not panic! MVD can progress rapidly, but also very slowly. There are medications to help the condition and these are often very effective and can afford months or even years of a good quality of life. As an owner, you need to be aware of any symptoms that might indicate a problem—exercise intolerance, coughing, weakness, or undue fatigue. Test Test Test" (http://www.ackcsc.org/health/hearts.html )

To say the least, the foregoing is a pathetic dearth of useful information.

Compare this to the discussion about MVD on the CKCSC,USA website: http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/founded-1954/heart.html which amounts to two very informative printed pages. Or to http://cavalierhealth.org, where you can get the equivalent of about 40 printed pages of information about MVD in Cavaliers.

 

[WoodHaven]

If breeders and judges had tried to follow the breed standard, which has barely changed in 30 years, there would not be as much change as their has been. There is a big difference between humans and purebreds, and it is the breed standards.

Nuances change. Todays breeders tend to dislike any white in the eye-- this is a nuance-- not a breed standard change. Todays breeders tend to not like ticking, freckling-- that is a large change from the early cavaliers. AGAIN, not a change in the breed standard.

I've never really thought about 'measuring' my dogs muzzle until today. I feel like an idiot for not knowing exactly where to start and where to finish the measuring.

Please, can you state a specific change?

My dogs' profiles look a lot like Kindrum Mint Julip-- but it is so hard to tell by pictures, where just being off a few degrees makes things look "odd".