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Health Testing

A

Anji

Member
Without naming names, I talked to a couple breeders who sit on the board of directors for CKCSC and they do not do all the main 4 tests (heart, eye, hip, patella).

Is this a huge red flag?

Additionally, I talked to another highly respected breeder (again on the CKCSC board) who said she did the MRIs for SM but the test results were so inconclusive and in some cases flat out wrong that she stopped the MRIs. She had a very convincing explanation and I truly don't believe she was just blowing smoke up my rear end so I'd buy a puppy from her. In fact, she had no puppies to sell.

Thoughts?

In other words, is Kennel name and Reputation enough?

How and when do I ask to see copies of the test results in the nicest and smoothest way possible?
 
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Unless the MRIs were done by a very incompetent neurologist who didn't know how to read them, I don't see how they can be 'inconclusive' or 'flat out wrong' - either there is a syrinx there or there isn't, which is essentially all you need to know to make breeding decisions. The mini scans done for breeders are usually enough to show the presence or otherwise of a syrinx (as well as Chiari Malformation and dilated ventricles that can often cause more problems than a syrinx) -my two Cavaliers only ever had mini scans, but this was enough basic information to be able to treat any symptoms that occurred. If there is any doubt about a result, get a second opinion, don't just give up scanning, which is the only tool we have at the moment to reduce the incidence of CM/SM, and has been shown to work.

And no, kennel name and reputation are not enough. In the UK we have a breeder who regularly wins top awards, but I know several dogs she has bred and sold as pets who have had serious CM/SM and it is general knowledge that she doesn't scan. Other top show kennels may indeed scan but they are very coy about publishing any results other than the good ones. I expect it's as much of a minefield in the US, and you may have a long wait to find a puppy with fully health tested parents (and if possible grandparents as well) - for MVD as well as CM/SM of course. A breeder who takes it seriously will be only too willing to show you certificates and appreciate that you know about the breed's health problems. If they don't want to show you certificates and discuss health, walk away - your puppy may take longer to arrive but will be grateful to you for giving him/her the best chance of a healthy life.

Kate
 
Thank you for your detailed explanation. The breeder who'd given up on MRIs said that one result showed no malformation but that dog ended up developing the most severe case of SM she'd ever seen. I got the feeling that she isn't disregarding MRIs; she did say she was waiting for the testing and results to become more reliable.

Yet another breeder (yes, on the CKCSC board) got ANGRY with me when I asked her why she wasn't following the MVD protocol. She told me if I wanted to find a breeder who follows whatever "internet protocol" is out there, then she'd be fine with that.

Most of these people are highly visible and recognized in the Cavalier world, so it's making me wonder if they aren't following all the guidelines, who on earth is??

Has anybody found a breeder who does *all* the tests? Anywhere in the United States? Distance is not a factor for me. Pleeeeease PM me.
 
In the UK it is largely the smaller breeders who do all the testing and try the hardest to breed healthy Cavaliers. It is not easy - not only do you have to test your own bitch, you also have to find a dog of the right colour, fully tested and with a pedigree that 'clicks', and testing isn't only heart testing by a cardiologist and an MRI scan, you also have DNA testing for Episodic Falling and Dry Eye and Curly Coat. It's likely, I would think, to be much the same in the US, but because of size more difficult to track down such a breeder - needles and haystacks come to mind! Try pm-ing RodRussell - he runs the CavalierHealth website, is very knowledgeable and might know some of the breeders you are looking for.

Good hunting!

Kate
 
Oh my goodness, yes-needle and haystack. But since I'm searching for an older puppy, it's a needle in 10 haystacks :(. Thanks for your suggestion to PM Rod-I just did.
 
All I can say is your experience certainly doesn't surprise in some ways, but really, in 2015, it absolutely shocking that the very top people in this club that claims to be 'forever guardians of the cavalier' (yeah: right) would say such things.

On the breeder whose results were 'inclusive' -- I wonder would she mind getting a second opinion on that MRI? I know of several cases now where US radiologists and neurologists stated they saw no CM on MRIs when there was definitely CM, and even mild CM may cause syrinxes but the best science-based correlation for healthy breeding is to use the CM/SM protocol, not breed willy-nilly --this is born out now by several years of studying several generations of dogs, done by top researchers on this condition.

There's also one US neurologist who keeps finding numerous dogs with no CM, which just seems highly unlikely -- and the breeder who has had these results has so far refused to submit them to the UK BVA/Kennel Club scheme whereby the MRIs would be read by three top neurologists for a grade. Really sad as if these results are correct, then theses are important dogs for research and the future of the breed. If these results are wrong interpretations, that needs to be known, too.

I wish there were more breeders who were truly 'guardians of the breed'. I sure haven't found many, after more than a decade. I'll message you a suggestion.
 
I see you are on the east coast...there are a couple breeders out there that do all testing including MRI. I also can pm you with a starting list of breeder you can contact. Now, be aware most breeders that MRI are small and will have a long waiting list. For me the wait is worth it to know you will be buying a potentially healthy dog for all its life. Meds for SM, and MVD can be very expensive especially if it is for the life of the dog.
Also, just to be fair to the breeder that said MRI are inconclusive. there is a study that confirms positioning can make the dog appear worse than it is...you want a well trained neurologist to do the MRI. And MRI will only show you what is happening on that day of the scan, because SM is progressive a dog that scans well at 2 may have sm at 5 or older. (there is also a study that supports that...will have to find them to share)
 
also, a breeder should be willing to share test results. I prefer a breeder that lists results on OFA. if they do that you can look up results yourself at offa.org and do a search with dog's name.

I told my dog's breeder I was worried about health issues and wanted to confirm for myself the parents had their testing done. the breeders I have bought from all listed on OFA, and so they told me I could find all results on there. MRI, is different of course....I haven't actually bought from anyone that mri's yet...mri results can't be listed on ofa yet. :D
 
sunshinekisses said:
also, a breeder should be willing to share test results. I prefer a breeder that lists results on OFA. if they do that you can look up results yourself at offa.org and do a search with dog's name. ...
Click to expand...

I prefer a breeder who not only lists results on OFA, but allows OFA to list ALL results, including the failures. That is FULL transparency.
 
Anji said:
Without naming names, I talked to a couple breeders who sit on the board of directors for CKCSC and they do not do all the main 4 tests (heart, eye, hip, patella).

Is this a huge red flag?
Click to expand...

In short, the answer is YES. Also, there are breeders on the board who do the heart test, but do not follow the MVD breeding protocol. If a bitch which had been tested for an MVD murmur at age 18 months and then was promptly bred, the results of that heart test were a waste of time.

Anji said:
Additionally, I talked to another highly respected breeder (again on the CKCSC board) who said she did the MRIs for SM but the test results were so inconclusive and in some cases flat out wrong that she stopped the MRIs. She had a very convincing explanation and I truly don't believe she was just blowing smoke up my rear end so I'd buy a puppy from her. In fact, she had no puppies to sell.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

She is speaking from personal experiences, I think. I don't agree with her conclusion. If an MRI is performed properly by a knowledgeable neurologist (or under the direction of one), and then read carefully by the neurologist, the results should not be inconclusive.

The proper way to perform an MRI for CM/SM is no secret. It is widely published.

Anji said:
In other words, is Kennel name and Reputation enough?
Click to expand...

Absolutely not!

Anji said:
How and when do I ask to see copies of the test results in the nicest and smoothest way possible?
Click to expand...

This is not easy to answer. You definitely should not start out by "cold-calling" the breeder and telling her during that call that you have a list of questions that you printed from a cavalier health website, and you would like her to answer them during the telephone call. For the best advice about how to approach breeders, I first would call either of two CKCSC,USA breeders -- Anne Eckersley or Pat Winters -- and ask their advice on how to proceed.

At some point, you probably will ask a breeder about the testing papers, and at that point you will know what kind of a breeder with whom you are dealing. There will be some who become a little more arms-length or even hostile, and there will be a few, if you are fortunate, who will welcome the question and respond with all of the information you request. Most, however, probably will try to talk you out of the need for some of the test results, especially if they don't have them because they have not tested.
 
Thanks everyone for your input. I am continually surprised by the number of high profile cold and even hostile breeders. Rod, I mentioned cavalierhealth.org as my "homework reading" to a breeder and she actually called me and screamed at me for 20 minutes. High five! :) I can console myself with the fact that I got screamed at for researching and trying to ensure a healthy life for my future Cavie rather than for any personal reason, sheesh.
 
Hoping to revive this thread. I have spoken with a breeder that has a good reputation in my area of the US about a pup she has available. The mom is 3 and this is her first liter, she has not been MRI scanned yet. Dad is 7 and is SM0. The paternal grandfather is still heart clear at 9, the breeder does not know about the paternal mom’s health and both of the mom’s parents are in Europe and she said she didn’t know about them. Is there a way for me to track that down? Should I be concerned there isn’t a more clear picture of the grandparents health?
 
I'd be immediately concerned that she has bred her dog already at 3, but hasn't MRId her. There's zero excuse for that, really -- she's instead relying on health info from one side of the breeding and hasn't bothered to MRI for the side for which she seems to have no information at all :oops:, yet went ahead and bred this girl anyway. It's also alarming that she knows nothing of the parentage of her bitch, which suggests it's a puppy farm or backyard bred dog without any health records from a questionable European breeder (Ireland and Eastern Europe are sources for cheap export breeding dogs with club registrations that enable US breeders to reregister under AKC or CKCSC and sell registered puppies at a premium). It also is suspicious in that it suggests the breeder could not get a health focused US or EU breeder to sell her a female puppy with full health records, that she could eventually use for breeding (most good breeders place breeding restrictions on their puppies so that they cannot be registered with the main national kennel clubs anywhere, unless the breeder chooses to lift the restriction). I cannot imagine any good breeder even considering using a dog of unknown background and without basic health testing to produce a litter.

Every good European CKCS breeder would vet where they send a dog and would without hesitation supply full multi-generation health records (and expect to do so!). It's good that the father has SM0 but much would depend on the age at which he was scanned and if he's been re-scanned if it was when he was 2.5 or younger.

Unfortunately there are an awful lot of red flags here that this is a backyard/amateur breeder only vaguely knowledgeable or concerned about health who really has few answers for a health-focused buyer and is assuming most people would neither know enough or care to ask about proper health testing.

Without being too specific, why does this person have a good reputation? Is this a registered show breeder? Is the good reputation from pet buyers or other breeders? TBH this often makes little difference anyway -- it's easy to scan breed club puppy litter registrations and see that parents have had few tests or have been bred at young ages before testing means much, and/or have little genetic diversity in the lines. It's sadly, a common issue. And I do know non-show (but registered) breeders who have a far greater health focus than the high profile show breeders. But doing an MRI before breeding would really be the most basic responsibility for a caring and health focused breeder as the future health of every individual puppy depends on the breeder making such efforts.
 
Anji said:
Thank you for your detailed explanation. The breeder who'd given up on MRIs said that one result showed no malformation but that dog ended up developing the most severe case of SM she'd ever seen. I got the feeling that she isn't disregarding MRIs; she did say she was waiting for the testing and results to become more reliable.

Yet another breeder (yes, on the CKCSC board) got ANGRY with me when I asked her why she wasn't following the MVD protocol. She told me if I wanted to find a breeder who follows whatever "internet protocol" is out there, then she'd be fine with that.

Most of these people are highly visible and recognized in the Cavalier world, so it's making me wonder if they aren't following all the guidelines, who on earth is??

Has anybody found a breeder who does *all* the tests? Anywhere in the United States? Distance is not a factor for me. Pleeeeease PM me.
Click to expand...
Anji
I am in the same boat. Looking for an “older” puppy from breeder that is fully MVD and SM testing. Willing to drive w/i 500 miles of Indy. Are their breeders out there that do this?
Signed a very wary prospective buyer
 
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