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Heat causing bad moods?

Cavvygirl

Well-known member
My boys adore each other and live together in harmony...most of the time.

We went through the stage of the food aggression and they are always seperated at feed and treat times but I have noticed over the past couple of days that they have had little snaps at each other, you know where they eyeball each other and literally snap....could the heat be causing this? (it has been really warm over here in the channel islands)
 
I doubt heat would cause this. What are there ages? Are they both neutered? Having two dogs of the same sex always runs a higher risk that the dogs will start to have scraps. This is especially the case as one younger dog reaches adulthood and may start to challenge the other -- typically this happens as a puppy gets closer to one or beyond one. But it can happen at any time. It can be the sign of developing problems as well. What is the context for them snapping and staring? What are they doing at the time this starts? Is it out of the blue or around mealtimes, over treats or toys, around you, competing for attention... or? Eyeballing and snapping would not be something you want to ever see, as staring is generally aggressive behaviour. If they are doing this, I'd immediately separate for a 10 minute time out in separate rooms, without scolding or anything like that -- just ths behaviour should trigger time outs every single time. The second this behaviour starts I'd separate them.

See: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/bodylang.html

If this kind of stuff is becoming the norm, you need to talk to a trainer if it starts to accelerate.
 
The eldest is 1year 3 months and the youngest is 7 months. I have only noticed it over the last couple of days and today when the weather is cooled down they haven't done it at all:confused:

They are always seperated with any food or treats so they aren't together at these times, I haven't noticed what has caused it once they were in the garden and the other time they were in the utility room. I don't leave toys around for them as we took them up when the food aggression started as when I am out of the house they are left alone together and we didn't want to risk them fighting over this. They are both entire males which we had planned to keep that way but if you feel neuturing would help to prevent them challenging then it is something we would do for their well being.

They have never actually hurt each other and I don't know if they actually would or if what i'm seeing is just a grumble (same with the food aggression) but I am a bit of a worrier and a bit over-protective!:rolleyes:

I hope I haven't painted a horrible picture of 2 aggressive dogs they are far from it!;)
 
At 7 months, your puppy is entering maturity, which could be triggering issues with your older male. Having two males who are not neutered could be problematic, especially if neither has a submissive personality. It is possible that one will establish itself as the dominant one, but it is also possible that they could continue to bicker over the lead position.

Neutering one or both dogs could help with the situation, especially since it's just starting and they have not established a pattern of conflict. It's probably worth considering and researching, even talking to your vet.
 
We did speak to alot of breeders both cavalier and other breeds and they have pointed us in the direction of numerous research into the whole neuter or entire debate and aside from not wanting to breed there have been no advantages of having our dogs neutured. The vets all tell you it decreases the risk of testicular cancer but in fact it is very rare and all the research we have come across does not really support their reasoning. We have had a bad experience with a vet in the past giving us bad advice so I have very little faith in what any vet says I should and shouldn't do unfortunately.

Ashton our eldest is a real pushover and from day one has always let Rio rule the roost so I really don't believe that it is a challenge for leadership. I can agree that with Rio reaching maturity this will have hormones racing etc and perhaps it was just a grumble after all?
After speaking at length with my friend who has lots of doggie experience I don't believe it is really the big situation that I made it out to be :oops:and she said just to keep an eye on it and if it happens again just to not make a fuss and give time out as Karlin suggested. Although I will continue to keep them seperate for their food and treats I don't feel any need to keep them seperate at other times.

Thanks for the advice though;)
 
I remember in one of Ian Dunbar's films that he spoke about neutering. He said that altering a male does not alter the behavior of the dog that is neutered. Instead, Dunbar suggests, that neutering your dog alters how other dogs respond to your dog (or the neutered dog). The fact that one dog is neutered alters how it is perceived by other dogs. So if an intact dog comes across a neutered dog, the intact dog feels less threatened, resulting in less tension in the potential relationship between the dogs.

Whether Dr. Dunbar is right, I have no way of knowing. I respect him tremendously (as do many in the dog world). If you're considering further research on neutering, you might be able to find support for his idea in one of his books or articles. I can't refer a specific one, though. Maybe Karlin or Tara can?

As another note--this is purely speculation as I don't know your dogs, obviously--but if you feel that the older dog has let the puppy rule the roost, it simply could be the older dog making allowances for the puppy. Now that the puppy is reaching maturity, the older dog may be setting stricter rules and boundaries, much as parents do with teenagers.

My pack leader, Cedar, would be considered really laid back. Most people would assume that Holly, the assertive, pushy girl is the leader because she seems to bully. However, it is very clear that Cedar is a very laid back leader. She lets Holly behavior however she wants, but there's a distinct line. If Holly crosses it, Cedar lets her know and Holly backs away immediately. Leaders can seem laid back, especially if they are dealing with puppies.

Anyway, hopefully you're right and the problem isn't as disconcerting as you originally felt. Perhaps its just a phase and timeouts will effectively deal with the problem.
 
Yes, I can appreciate what you are saying about pack leader and perhaps it isn't always who we think it is but it isn't Ashton starting the fights its Rio!:rolleyes:

Anyway all seems quite on the western front (not trying to jinx it) and I have to say in every other way they are beautiful role models and immaculately behaved so really we are very lucky and I shouldn't worry so much.;)

That is interesting the information that you came across from Ian Dunbar, many of my friends from the show/breeder world recommend his puppy training books to potential owners etc but they haven't mentioned his research, perhaps it is the one thing they disagree with?

I will ensure that I am well read on his point of view and consider whether I feel the same about neutering after that.:)
 
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Just thought i'd update you all:)

I called the local animal behaviorist who came round to have a look just in case it was aggression, I explained what had been happening and in her opinion there is no cause for concern:):)
She did say that most dogs do not eat together in harmony and if they do you are very lucky as with more than one dog they will always want to protect their food from the others because some people eat slower etc etc
From what she observed she said that it would appear that Ashton is actually the leader which was suprising but she also said that he has a very submissive nature (I knew that part already;)) she said it is perfectly natural for Ashton to tell Rio off if he gets too big for his boots:rolleyes:

I feel much better about it all now, better to be safe than sorry;)
 
I say this all the time: in my experience most people easily misjudge which dog of theirs is 'dominant'; it is so easy to do! This is why I so very strongly advise to NOT use methods of training or base any assumptions on behaviour on very outdated theories of dominance and submission and pack structure in dogs. Many people take exactly the worst approach to managing problems with their dogs by basing it on what they perceive to be the dominance/pack structure reasons for behaviour -- and most often IMHO they are wrong.

Read Jean DOnaldson's Culture Clash, many of Ian Dunbar's writings, and Patricia McConnell's The Other End of the Leash for example and you will realise how subtle dog and all canid relationships are. Pack leader animals almost never, ever, ever are aggressive or use any form of physical control. Indeed the leader is most likely to be the lowest key, most benign and gentle dog in the group that regularly allows toys to be taken from him/her by other dogs and so forth. A big problem with how people understand and interpret dominance theories (such as they are) is that 'dominance' has all sorts of emotional meanings in human language and it does NOT carry these same contexts and meanings for dogs, at all. We hear dominance and think: bossy, controlling, aggressive, pushy, misbehaving. For dogs, true 'dominance' simply means benign leadership 99% of the time. So if you peg the 'misbehaving' dog as the dominant dog you are almost always going to be... wrong! :lol:

Unfortunately some very old and poor standard research on captive wolves, long since disproven, forms the basis of much of what passes for dog training these days, based around 'corrections', physical handling of the dog, and these ridiculous assumptions about dominance, pack leaders in the house and so on. I have no doubt there's a correlation between this method of training -- very popular in the past 20-30 year and especially the past 5 years with the ris and rise of Cesar Milan and similar TV trainers, Dog Borstal etc -- and the very significant rise in aggressive dogs and massive increase in the number of dog bites medically treated even though the total dog population per capita has only slightly increased -- by about 2% in one recently studied 9 year period. Over 10 years from the mid 80s to the mid 90s medically attended dog bites rose by 36% in the US. In Britain, the number of medically treated attacks has risen 47% in the past 5 years.

Also it seems there isn't just ONE leader but often different leaders in different contexts. That also makes it hard to guess which dog at home is the leader and supposedly 'dominant'. In my house Leo is the leader of the group overall -- but no one ever guesses this because he is the sweetest, gentlest dog imaginable. Everyone guesses Jaspar but Jaspar is actually very submissive -- he is the one who will roll on his back when he meets many other dogs. Leo never does this. But Leo often takes cues from Jaspar in certain contexts, such as play. It is a very, very interesting area but it is always IMHO best to base training and management decisions on positive, rewards based approaches that shape and prompt desired behaviours. :) Also: setting up dogs so that they behave as we wish -- eg preventing the problems in the first place by not feeding in proximity, managing treats, preventing flashpoints -- is definitely the best approach. We after all confine dogs down into tiny false territories which alters natural behaviours anyway so it's our job to make that work well for everyone, us and the dogs. :)
 
I can now see the little signs that in fact Ashton is the boss where as like you mentioned Karlin because Rio was the one being naughty and growling over food I assumed (wrongly) that it was him in charge.:rolleyes:

In fact I have also noticed over the past few days from really really watching them that Rio looks to Ashton for lots of things and in fact Ashton really did most of the work toilet training Rio.

I find it so fascinating how their relationships work and will be going to the bookstore later in the month to get myself some more dog behaviour books;)
 
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