judy
Well-known member
karlin said:I'm going to issue my standard Dog Whisperer warning here as I am increasingly alarmed at how much positive press this man has received. This is of course my opinion but I feel very strongly that his approaches to training should have no place in training a cavalier (I also realise training methods often bitterly divide dog people but I am very concerned about some of the more physical methods he advocates which IMHO are potentially harsh and even potentially risky to use with cavaliers. Also his whole language of managing a dog to me is shocking -- like the old 1960s training methods where choke chains were standard even for small breeds).
A lot of trainers have major problems with the Dog Whisperer's approach. These kinds of dominance theories are considered not just quite outdated approaches to training by many internationally-respected certification programmes these days but can actually be detrimental and even dangerous when applied without a full knowledge of dog behaviour -- most especially with an aggressive dog, and even more so when the causes for the aggression are not understood. So please, please do NOT try to be more dominant as this behaviour could be related to fear, anxiety or frustration ALL of which can be exacerbated by traditional dominance approaches INCLUDING the Dog Whisperer's.
The fact that his training schools apparently use choke chains (as cited in a current lawsuit against him) is a real warning signal as well that this type of approach has absolutely nothing to do with the Horse Whisperer, Monty Robert's famous positive motivation-based approaches to training (which then became the basis of the book and then the film the Horse Whisperer). I am not sure how or why the Dog Whisperer is able to use a 'brand' so closely related to one person -- Monty Roberts -- whose entire training philosophy towards animals is at odds with physical corrections and using special gear to subdue a dog or the notion of pitting wills against an animal as advocated in his dominance/submission approach noted previously.
I encourage people to read widely in training philosophies and not be overly impressed by the ability of some to seemingly enact training miracles on television. It is far easier to get a response from an animal by making it fearful of consequences of 'wrong' behaviour rather than motivated towards successful choices of 'right' behaviour, but this seriously alters your relationship with that animal in what I think is a very sad way. Especially our gentle cavaliers -- I think this diminishes confidence rather than enhances it. Also some people --including most pro trainers -- are simply very good at getting responses from ANY animal. You wouldn't necessarily want to use their approach unless it fits your philosophy and level of ability and knowledge. For example I know my boys behave better whenever Tara and Lisa are in my house. :lol:
I can testify to seeing miraculous changes in very aggressive dogs using an entirely motivational approach in only two days, in a weekend seminar by Dee Ganley (who is wonderful but sadly will never be likely to have that glossy TV glamour personality that brings TV fame) -- see www.deesdogs.com for her approach. BTW she is internationally known for success with aggressive dogs including in demanding environments such as police and customs. So this isn't some 'namby-pamby' bleeding heart method of training, but a SUCCESSFUL method of training and rehabilitating dogs from the most demanding environments. She does not use typical old-style dominance/submission theories or encourage anyone to think in these ways. I also watched a jaw-dropping video of dee working an entire row of kennels in an animal shelter full of anxious, barking, jumping, sometimes furious dogs. Starting at one end, you watch her in sequence get every single dog to sit quietly and wait for its kennel door to be opened so she can enter quietly, a task that took her an average of 3 minutes per dog. Really amazing, but so simple to motivate them in a positive way! I tried this on my two to get them to wait for me to go through a door first and it too took all of two-three minutes -- no body blocking, jerking backwards, leash corrections required. It was fun! And they know to wait now very poltiely.
I prefer to stick with trainers and theories that get responses by inspiring rather than intimidating or confronting dogs.
Now I will get off my soapbox.
PS Judy, Jan Fennell has had two or three TV series in the UK.
Karlin, thanks for the soapbox, perspective and info. I created a new thread to respond to what you said, it's such a big topic.
On the Dog Whisperer TV show, they don't show actual abuse of a dog (of course), just persistent blocking of behaviors, for example, a dog pulling on the leash is countered by the "pack leader" pulling up on the leash/collar (i think--if i'm remembering right) and it doesn't appear brutal.
BUT, i cringe at the idea of doing that, especially with a cavalier or small dog. I use a harness on Zack, not a collar, especially because of the risk of SM, if he does have any tendency toward it, trauma to the neck and base of skull would seem to create a risk of worsening it or hastening its development.
A guy at the dog park has trained his own dog (yellow lab) mainly based on Cesar Millan's methods, and he showed me how to get Zack to heel, he said it takes at most less than a minute. He took his nylon leash and made it into a noose or slipknot, and put it on Zack, and i was cringing because i'm just freaked by him having a collar on at all, or stress put on his neck, and the guy pulled up on the collar to make zack sit down, and zack fought it for a few seconds, and the guy said that was good for him to fight it, and then Zack sat down, in less than 10 seconds. The guy then started walking around with zack on the leash and zack was heelilng nicely, just like that, he followed the guy round and round. but i still can't get over a feeling of dread that his neck or skull was damaged, however slightly. It happened so fast, i didn't voice my objection. He was a very nice man who adores his dog (he has given his dog a website! the dog is some kind of frisbee champion. he has a webcam on the dog so that he can check on him when he's at the office during the day. He clearly loves his dog, and his cat, very much).
I am worried because Lisa has enrolled Belle in an obedience class and the trainer had all of them buy pinch collars (prong collars). They're choke chains with prongs on them, and Lisa said they are supposed to be safer than regular choke chains because the prongs prevent the dog from fighting the pressure, so there aren't any trachea injuries. But because of the risk to Cavaliers of SM, I don't like to see training that uses pressure on the neck. I expressed this to Lisa. That's all i can do. Are there any articles on dangers of using collars on small dogs?
Thanks for the link on Dee Ganley. I will buy one of her training manuals. I wonder how much it would cost for her to produce a DVD of a seminar, or private training lesson clips, to demonstrate what she's doing in action. There seems to be a huge market for these things.
The more diverse dog training approaches I come across, the more i see that there is overlap with all of them, and there are certain core things that are shared. It's like child raising. I think what Cesar Millan has going for him that he shares with other prominant trainers is an air of self confidence with the dogs, i don't think it's the dominance methods so much as the putting out of a strong quiet relaxed persona, clear simple communication without analysis, just dealing directly with behavior in a straightforward way. Not so easy to do for everyone, not always something i'm good at. And the other thing that these different approaches seem to share is good knowledge of dog nature, the way dogs think and what motivates them, etc. These are both traits that actual dog pack leaders have, or that mother dogs have in relation to their pups. Things aren't complicated. Communication is direct and immediate, there's no emotional baggage.
The dogs on TV, and Zack heeling in the park, did not appear fearful in their submission. They appeared relaxed and content. Like dogs hanging out with their pack i suppose. But as you say, because Cavaliers are gentle and also because they are small and delicate, i can't imagine using any kind of rough training, even if it works and even if it doesn't seem to work through fear. And if there are positive friendly methods that work at least as well in attaining dog cooperativeness, then it seems a no brainer that this would be the superior way to go for the sake of a loving relationship.
Jan Fennell also seems to emphasize dominance. I've barely scratched the surface of her book (The Practical Dog Listener), but this morning i read that she advises against letting dogs control their toy box.
I used to control Zack's toy bin. i'd get the toys out for him. then he began figuring out how to knock it over so he could get inside it and pull his toys out himself, and i thought "Should i discourage that so that i will have control over whether he can get toys or not, or should i let him experience the feeling of efficacy of mastering new skills?" and i opted for the latter--i wanted to empower him. But Jan encourages dominance, apparently for the same reasons Cesar does, but she goes for it by different methods, apparently, more positive and gentler? I have barely looked into either of these so i can't really say. i had to laugh when i saw her bit about the toy box control. LOL, i guess i really blew that one.
I was just looking at a book on amazon.com called The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. that seems to be a positive approach. Any opinion on that approach? It's very helpful to hear criticisms of approaches, very informative.
the first dog training book i got, on recommendation from someone on one of the cavalier email lists, is Puppy Preschool by John Ross. It was very helpful to me in the beginning, by giving me a very effective and gentle way of correcting and redirecting zack that took no training at all, it worked the first time: the word/sound "Naahh." I dont' know why it works, Ross said it's because it's the sound the mother dog makes. Whatever, it sure has worked.
It seems another training controversy is the use of food treats. There seems to be some strong division over this.
by the way, about the Horse Whisperer, the author of the book, Nichoas Evans, has another book which deals with wolves and peoples' relationships to them, it's called The Loop (whcih is a kind of trap which is very inhumane) i loved that book and can recommend it as a good fiction read.