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MVD and Pedigree Dogs Exposed

Cathy Moon said:
No wonder the MVD statistics are not improving.
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That is contrary to everything I am being told by cardiologists-- I have been told that fewer and fewer cavaliers are being dx early.

It is fairly common to use a male before 2.5 years. Don't shoot the messenger, but MANY breeders try a boy out early. The protocol isn't the "rule", it is a strongly worded suggestion.
I am just telling you how it is, I am not supporting any position.
 
I'm wondering if these cardiologists are in Chicago area? Sad about using male dogs early-only takes one parent to pass on the MVD and if they're b/4 the minimum age of 2.5 I guess it's buyer beware.:( IMHO it's sad b'cuz it seems it's about prestige or money but not about helping the breed.
 
frecklesmom said:
I'm wondering if these cardiologists are in Chicago area? Sad about using male dogs early-only takes one parent to pass on the MVD and if they're b/4 the minimum age of 2.5 I guess it's buyer beware.:( IMHO it's sad b'cuz it seems it's about prestige or money but not about helping the breed.
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No, they are the cardiologists we use at club shows; Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana.
You have to remember that early onset isn't necessary a death sentence and being clear past five doesn't mean you are alive at six. Many of these same breeders have 3-4 generations IN their home.
IF you think you have the answers to this breed issue. Put your money, (blood,sweat and tears) on the line and do it. It shouldn't take more than 3-5 years of study. 2-4 years to finish a dog and then your set.... Don't forget to bring your check book. Nothing about breeding is cheap. Too many people seem to act like monday morning quarterbacks.
 
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I know breeders often try out a boy when young. But even if that were still acceptable (and I do not think is, given the serious health issues -- these are basically then test litters and I wonder are the puppy buyers told the potential consequences?) ) there is still a HUGE difference between trying a boy out to prove he will mate and deliberately breeding six litters before the dog is even a year old, starting from 9 months which most responsible breeders even in breeds that do not have the CKCS's heart problems think is irresponsibly early. Most say a minimum of a year old at least -- to breed at 9 months is nauseating.

Is it right to do so in a breed where solid research shows that the older a dog is at onset, the longer offspring will also live? I think no. The research is also very clear that later onset murmurs tend not to be as extreme a form of MVD. The studies are there.

If breeders consider the MVD protocol not worth following -- and going by evidence in the pedigree database or taking the Beauella dog as an example, lots consider it an inconvenience that others can follow, but not them -- then why do the clubs tell us, the pet puppy buyers, to find breeders who follow it? What then differentiates getting a dog from a BYB or a mill? The majority of older cavaliers I meet in Ireland that are over 10 are actually either BYB or otherwise casually bred dogs where absolutely no thought at all went into the mating. If health protocols do not matter, and they are regularly skirted, then I can offer little argument against buying your puppy out of the want ads over here except the fact that the club bred dog might look a little nicer. But most people know little about exactly how a cavalier should look any way a and do not care.

I support club breeders who at minimum follow the MVD protocol and have spent three years running this site and going to bat constantly for good breeders and the value of the health-focused breeder. I have never wavered in that commitment to health focused breeders. The MVD protocol is the most basic and most well-researched of health guidelines in the breed. If no one really thinks they should follow it, I would like the clubs to explain why they are telling us that we need to find such breeders if so many feel it doesn't matter anyway? Is it all lip service then, as most breeders know most buyers are too intimidated to ask for certs? What value then to going to the majority of club breeders at all?
 
Karlin wrote:
Born on 3 Oct 2003. He has had at least 35 litters, producing a total of 128 pups (I think more since then as there are two litters on the ground now).

Litter birthdate/ Number of pups

05/08/2004 6
11/10/2004 5
05/11/2004 5
25/11/2004 1
06/12/2004 1
27/12/2004 5 End Karlin statement
************************************************
According to these litter stats-- he was bred 4 times before a year of age.

Would I breed my males under a year -- NO. Would I breed TO a male under a year-- NO. But this isn't MY breeding program. Did she break any laws-- No.

Buyers have the ultimate power here-- to buy or not to buy a pup. I field over a hundred puppy buyers- no way could I ever have a hundred pups a year to sell. I try to give people the questions to ask breeders. I hope they do the research, but most people give more attention to price than health tests.

How are puppy mills and byb different from reputable breeders who don't follow protocols. I just picked up two breeding cavaliers from a mill shut down. Most reputable breeders would NEVER breed these two dogs (let alone make designer puppies from them). These two poor dogs looked and acted like they'd been through Hell. fwiw
 
WoodHaven said:
That is contrary to everything I am being told by cardiologists-- I have been told that fewer and fewer cavaliers are being dx early.

It is fairly common to use a male before 2.5 years. Don't shoot the messenger, but MANY breeders try a boy out early. The protocol isn't the "rule", it is a strongly worded suggestion.
I am just telling you how it is, I am not supporting any position.
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Compared to the statistics complied which led to the 1998 MVD Protocol, there is no way fewer Cavaliers now are developing early-onset MVD.

First of all, the statistics in the USA used to develop the MVD Protocol were complied over an eight year period -- 1990-1997 -- when nearly all Cavaliers in the USA were registered with the CKCSC,USA, and the statistics were obtained from health clinics held by CKCSC,USA at its regional conformation shows. Since, 1996, roughly 80% of all Cavaliers bred in the USA have not been registered with the CKCSC,USA and instead are registered only with the AKC (or, worse, registered only by any of those 20+ listing services which commercial and backyard breeders have been flocking to).

Since the AKC's parent club for Cavaliers, the ACKCSC, has ignored the MVD breeding protocol (it is nowhere to be found on its website and never has been), and typically, AKC parent clubs are the main source for nearly all health information passed along to AKC-only breeders, that means that since 1996, nearly 80% of all CKCS breeders don't even know about the MVD breeding protocol, much less wait until their stock is 2.5 years old to breed them.

Those cardiologists who think early-onset MVD is declining have been living in a bubble. They are testing only a very small percentage of Cavaliers now being bred.

Very few breeders faithfully follow the MVD Protocol, and I know of less than ten in the USA who follow it from the beginning of their use of their breeding stock. In other words, perhaps a breeder will have a dog or a bitch which is over 2.5 years of age with a clear heart and with both parents' hearts clear at 5 years, so when that Cavalier is bred, the breeder would be complying with the MVD Protocol. But, odds are that the breeder did not wait until that Cavalier was 2.5 years of age before the first breeding. So, at the outset, the breeders did not comply with the Protocol, and most probably with other breeding stock in her kennel, she has been breeding Cavaliers which will never be able to comply.

As you wrote:
It is fairly common to use a male before 2.5 years. Don't shoot the messenger, but MANY breeders try a boy out early. The protocol isn't the "rule", it is a strongly worded suggestion.
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It is EXTREMELY common. And, it is totally irresponsible. It is true that the Protocol is not a rule, but any breeder who does not follow it is contributing to the growing problem of early-onset MVD and to the unnecessary early deaths of future generations of Cavaliers, and no one should buy a puppy from such a breeder.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA
 
I hope everyone realizes that Sandy does follow MVD protocol and she has MRI'd many of her dogs. I can't speak for the UK but most US Club breeders do follow it as well. It's interesting to me that my only Cavalier who has a murmur is the one who had Swedish parents, where their strict rules and progress are used as an example. He's a neutered pet but I have taken advantage of heart clinics, which are open to everyone, to get him tested. But why does the blame fall mostly on the breeders when some puppy buyers who are trying to save a few or a lot of bucks are keeping the mills and BYB's in business? Not only do they accept random and careless breeding but also are more comfortable with the "nicer" breeder who doesn't ask too many questions, doesn't care if you have a fenced yard or not, work hours, young children, etc.? I don't accept that they are too intimidated to ask for it. They'd ask for it with any other product. And maybe spend more time learning how to buy it. I can't tell you how many times I've explained to buyers that the parents are the key, but they go ahead and buy the puppy anyway without the basics. There is a line here that I have risked telling puppy buyers about because of what I know. So what did they do? They told the breeder , got some kind of reassurance and went and got the puppy anyway. That is a perfect example of "it goes both ways." I speak for myself when I tell you that I do not support a breeder who goes against everything we've learned, I just think that an inordinate amount of time has been spent making one person the focus and it isn't productive. Also, how many of you are getting your middle age dog heart seen by a cardiologist to get a head start on any potential problems? It's not just for breeders.
 
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No body asked for my statistics... I have one dog that is 5 or under that had a one murmur. I will have her tested again in 12 days and we will see whats up.(she is spay) The 7,6,6,5 4.5 etc... were all CLEAR. That meant that as of last year 10% of my cavaliers had a murmur AT ALL.

I don't know who and how those statistics were compiled, but I have sponsored a health clinic at MY place for the last 5 years.
***** September 14th the CKCSC-GC will have health clinics for the 6th year-- anyone who can make it to the north chicago suburbs on that day is invited. http://www.ckcsc-gc.org/ All breeds invited for heart auscultation and CERF eye exams by board certified specialists ($30.00 each test). We open up our place to make it easier for people to find good vets at a decent price. I do what I can Rod.
 
Good afternoon,

a few of you may have noticed my resitance to a statement that 50% of Cavaliers have a heart problem at age 5. This is because I simply can not accept that this is rue for the whole world.

There has only been one large scale study of cavalier hearts in germany running from 01.01.2000 to 01.01.2003 - In this Study (Hagel) 640 cavaliers were examined. Of these dogs 11,4% had a heart murmer. The prevalence of a heart murmer in a dog under 4 years was found to be 20,9%

In this study this 20,9% is compared to historical figures from different countries. They were as follows:

UK (1987) - prevalence 59%
Australia (1992) prevalence 25%
USA (1993) prevalence 56%
Austria (1995) prevalence 71%
Denmark (1999) prevalence 48,3%
Sweden (1992) prevalence 42%

The study is here: http://www.ccd-cavaliere.de/tierschutz/herzstudie_hagel.pdf

I am sorry but I can not translate it but you can see the table I am referring to on page 2.

Why should I assume that in germany - where no heart sick dam may be used in breeding, and where inly limited use of heart sick sires is allwoed that this should have increased.

kind regards,

Katherine
 
Nancy said:
...I can't speak for the UK but most US Club breeders do follow it as well. ...
... But why does the blame fall mostly on the breeders when some puppy buyers who are trying to save a few or a lot of bucks are keeping the mills and BYB's in business?
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I don't which US club you are referring to, but as for the CKCSC,USA and the AKC, nearly all breeders in both clubs do NOT follow the MVD breeding protocol. The ACKCSC, which is the parent club for Cavaliers in the AKC, does not even publish the MVD Breeding Protocol on its website.

As for blaming the breeders, I certainly DO blame the breeders who do not follow the MVD Breeding Protocol because they are the ones who make the decisions to breed underaged Cavaliers. If they base their breeding decisions on competing with commercial breeders and BYBs to please puppy buyers, then they are no better than those commercial breeders and BYBs.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA
 
WoodHaven said:
No body asked for my statistics... I have one dog that is 5 or under that had a one murmur. I will have her tested again in 12 days and we will see whats up.(she is spay) The 7,6,6,5 4.5 etc... were all CLEAR. That meant that as of last year 10% of my cavaliers had a murmur AT ALL.

I don't know who and how those statistics were compiled, but I have sponsored a health clinic at MY place for the last 5 years. ...
... I do what I can Rod.
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Sandy, I know what you do, and I respect you for it. The more heart clinics, the better!

As for compiling the statistics, the procedure which led up to the creation of the MVD Breeding Protocol was that the examining cardiologists sent a copy of each report they filled out at health clinics, and submitted the reports, without the dogs' names and other information, to either Dr. Buchanan or another cardiologist, who compiled the data.

I do not know if this data collection has continued.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA
 
If they base their breeding decisions on competing with commercial breeders and BYBs to please puppy buyers, then they are no better than those commercial breeders and BYBs.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA[/QUOTE]

Rod, My dogs are registered with both clubs but I belong to CKCSC where everyone I personally know, does follow in most instances. If they do not, they know the lines many generations back. I don't know everyone, so saying most is inaccurate. However, Where do you get the conclusion that I said anyone based breeding decisions on competing with commercial breeders...nothing I said is even close!
Yes, those who breed with igorance and disregard are certainly to blame, my point is that it goes both ways. Why are people still buying puppies from them?
 
How would you know who follows it or not? Do you mean EVER or do you mean 100%? I mean accidents DO happen to even the most diligent of breeders.
AND diversity in nature is what tends to balance things out. IF everyone had to do everything the same way.... we'd all be in the same boat. This is great if ALL aspects and changes are positive. What happens if EVERYONE now has another medical disaster and we are all in the same boat...
AND your premise of the protocol is that it is the truth, the gospel and the holy grail of breeding. One must realize that the truths of today are often wrong. The earth is flat, the earth is the center of the universe, sperm is the whole reproductive unit and the female the fertile growing medium. THESE were all known "truths". While I believe in the MVD protocol (YES, honest to pete) I am not going to play G*D and tell everyone that they must follow me down the path. Sorry, MY crystal ball is out for repair.
 
Nancy said:
Rod, My dogs are registered with both clubs but I belong to CKCSC where everyone I personally know, does follow in most instances. If they do not, they know the lines many generations back. I don't know everyone, so saying most is inaccurate. However, Where do you get the conclusion that I said anyone based breeding decisions on competing with commercial breeders...nothing I said is even close!
Yes, those who breed with igorance and disregard are certainly to blame, my point is that it goes both ways. Why are people still buying puppies from them?
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Members of my family have been members of the CKCSC,USA since the early 1970s, and one or more of us are in frequent conversation with several breeders in that club. In addition, the CKCSC,USA litter statistics, which are published quarterly, include the names and birthdates of sires and dams. So, even if I know nothing else about a particular parent of a litter, I know that if that parent is under 2.5 years of age, that breeder is not following the MVD Breeding Protocol. First litter information also is available from the AKC about AKC-registered Cavaliers.

As for your question in your second paragraph above, I was commenting on what I thought you wrote in your earlier post. If I mis-read it, then ignore what I wrote. My point is that, regardless of the knowledge and intentions of the buyer -- which in most cases is total ignorance about MVD -- the buck stops with the breeders. They are the ones who do the breeding.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA
 
WoodHaven said:
AND your premise of the protocol is that it is the truth, the gospel and the holy grail of breeding. One must realize that the truths of today are often wrong.
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We will never know, because the MVD Breeding Protocol essentially was Dead-On-Arrival in May 1998, so few breeders having chosen to follow it, from the very outset. As the geneticist who devised it, Lennart Swenson, stated at the May 1998 Symposium: ""The biggest reason that breeding schemes fail is that breeders don't follow them!"

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA
 
Off thread topic

It is so nice to be able to debate issues of importance and understand that we may not agree--- but we do what we do for the love of this breed. I know that Rod puts a lot of good information online (health clinics etc...). I also don't believe I would have bought my first cavalier if I'd read all the information he has up. Luckily, my cavaliers have been healthier than the britney, cocker and collie that I have had in the recent past.
 
KR said:
There has only been one large scale study of cavalier hearts in germany running from 01.01.2000 to 01.01.2003 - In this Study (Hagel) 640 cavaliers were examined. Of these dogs 11,4% had a heart murmer. The prevalence of a heart murmer in a dog under 4 years was found to be 20,9%

In this study this 20,9% is compared to historical figures from different countries. They were as follows:

UK (1987) - prevalence 59%
Australia (1992) prevalence 25%
USA (1993) prevalence 56%
Austria (1995) prevalence 71%
Denmark (1999) prevalence 48,3%
Sweden (1992) prevalence 42%

Why should I assume that in germany - where no heart sick dam may be used in breeding, and where inly limited use of heart sick sires is allwoed that this should have increased
Click to expand...

I am not sure that the numbers of dogs is accurate in all of those studies quoted above, because the MVD breeding protocol statistics were based upon examinations of several thousands of Cavaliers. The above studies also do not include all of the countries in which such studies were conducted, Canada being notably absent.

If, in Germany or any other country, the MVD Breeding Protocol or a similar one is compulsory, I would expect a lower incidence of early-onset MVD in the offspring and future generations. That is how it was explained at the MVD Symposium in May 1998. I am sure that current statistics for Sweden would be much lower than they were in 1992 (42%), because of the compulsory breeding protocol instituted there. Australia and New Zealand have been an anomoly to me. Perhaps it is due to their remoteness.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA
 
My issue is that on one side, we have had scientific research that clearly shows breeding older dogs with clear hearts produces more older dogs with clear hearts.

On the other side we have breeders that will argue they know lines and longevity and therefore can fudge on the MVD protocol because they know better, yet that knowing better than the science sure doesn't seem to have worked, given the continuing problem in the breed with MVD! In club-bred dogs. In the UK club at least, they are tracking the active breeder results and the accuracy of the fact that there has been NO improvement comes from the club's own cardiologist! Not from someone guessing, or some outside study.

I repeat: we are not talking BYBs and puppy farm cavaliers, here, we are talking *club breeders* and their dogs.

I can pull any range of dogs off the winning lists from recent UK shows and demonstrate definitively that many are bred well outside the MVD protocol. Do a reverse pedigree and you can see that most bitches are bred starting at the 16 month minimum that the CLUB sanctions in its ethics section! It is easy to name and shame -- as Rod says -- and maybe the time has come to start listing dogs bred outside the heart protocol so people can at least remove those lines from their list of puppy purchases. I can easily go find dogs bred outside th MVD protocol, bred by the same people on the club committees who tell us, the puppy buyers, never, ever to buy from a breeder who doesn't follow it.

I mean, the UK Club does not even bother to recommend the MVD protocol in its own code of ethics!

No bitch to be mated so as to whelp before she is 16 months old, and then only if she is considered mature enough to raise a litter of puppies.
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What does this say to breeders -- do what you want, basically, because we don't sanction following this important health protocol, nudge nudge. And there's no change in MVD statistics. Hmmm -- might the two not be connected?

This just makes a mockery of the protocol and demolishes reasons why puppy buyers should bother with many of the club breeders. Nine months is about as far outside the MVD protocol as you can get -- that's a puppy that has barely hit puberty. :bang:
 
RodRussell said:
I am not sure that the numbers of dogs is accurate in all of those studies quoted above, because the MVD breeding protocol statistics were based upon examinations of several thousands of Cavaliers. The above studies also do not include all of the countries in which such studies were conducted, Canada being notably absent.

If, in Germany or any other country, the MVD Breeding Protocol or a similar one is compulsory, I would expect a lower incidence of early-onset MVD in the offspring and future generations. That is how it was explained at the MVD Symposium in May 1998. I am sure that current statistics for Sweden would be much lower than they were in 1992 (42%), because of the compulsory breeding protocol instituted there. Australia and New Zealand have been an anomoly to me. Perhaps it is due to their remoteness.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA
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Why should the number be incorrect? If you click on the link I posted earlier you are brought directly to the study - it states in teh amtrix on page 2 the specific studies to which it is referring. This is the only mass study that has been done in Germany, there is no other one. The nubmer of dogs examined for Germany (approx 600) may seem low, but we only have between 600 to 800 puppies born per year. the population here in particular the population being sued to breed is not large.

I am in no way trying to discredit any other study, but I live and breed in Germany and so the figures for Germany are most relevant to me, not those of the US or the UK.

I also in another post posted feedback from the stud book manager. We have in our club only one stud dog on our books who has grade 1 mvd - and he is 8 years old, and believe me noone uses him here. The majority of stud dog owners do ultrasound test - which are more precise than auskultation. We have different rules here than the mvd protocol, but that is the advantage we have rules, they are rules not a recommendation. Breeders here even do more than the rules not to have mvd. In addition to this we track every year the heart status of our dogs and this is documented in our stud book.

I have no reason to believe that there is widespread mvd amongst our population - so I will not state that every breeder in the world must follow the mvd protocol. I fully accept that in some countries this is the solution.

There is an interesting hitsory to the population in Germany. Germany as you know until about 20 years ago was two countries (I think 20 is correct!). The cavalier population in East Germany was very very inbred, a geneticists nightmare! But they had never heard of heart problems and certainly did not observe them - it is quite possible that they were there and were not noticed, but msot east german breeders are convinced that they simply did not exist in their population. Now you may think that is impossible - but it is not - it was an extremely isolated dog population with very few imports, also from the eastern block countries. They did however have SM then - but they did not know what to call it. The merger of the east german and west germans dogs did not take place overnight!

kind regards,

Katherine
 
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