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A Cavalier film, health related, BBC1........

Well, I'll tell you what should happen for starters Bet; Ronnie Irving and his sidekick (didn't get his name) should be SACKED from the Kennel Club for starters and bring in people who are actually passionate about maintaining the overall health and wellbeing, not to mention,the longevity of EVERY breed instead of worrying about losing members and dare I say it: REVENUE :-X:-X

I'd like to congratulate Carol Fowler and Margaret C for having the courage to speak out publicly and a big thank you to Alison Leighfield for allerting us all to tonight's programme and to Karlin Lillington for providing us with a POWERFUL TOOL i.e this forum.

To all those breeders who carry out ALL the neccessary health checks - well done:flwr: you play a huge part in helping to save our beloved Cavaliers. To those who don't -SHAME ON YOU!!
 
Claire L said:
I'd like to congratulate Carol Fowler and Margaret C for having the courage to speak out publicly and a big thank you to Alison Leighfield for allerting us all to tonight's programme and to Karlin Lillington for providing us with a POWERFUL TOOL i.e this forum.

To all those breeders who carry out ALL the neccessary health checks - well done:flwr: you play a huge part in helping to save our beloved Cavaliers. To those who don't -SHAME ON YOU!!
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I couldn't put this any better.
 
A Cavalier Film,Health Related, BBC1

Could I mention that because of the Confidential Information passed on by Margaret C on last night's TV Film about MRI Scans ,that the Cavalier Breeders will want to now MRI Scan their Breeding Stock.

I do hope that they will realize that the MRI Scans will now be confidential that are going to be sent to Dr S Blott at the Animal Health Trust ,that she and she alone will have the information and that it Wont be being broadcast on a TV Program!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a great disservice this has been done to the Breed,just when the Cavalier Breeders had such great hopes for the Future of the Cavalier because of Dr Blott's New Type of Research .

I do hope that through time the Cavalier Breeders will know that they can trust Dr Blott and will co-operate by doing MRI Scans so that her Research Work can move forward .or all that money given to Dr Blott will have been in vain

Bet
 
Whats with keeping them all confidential in the first place? why all the secrecy?

Surely it's more important to be open and honest, to admit openly without shame that you have an affected Cavalier to another breeder if asked, and to guarantee that you WILL NOT be breeding from the affected ones.

As more and more pet buyers learn about SM don't they have a right to see the scans and neurologist report of a dog that is possibly producing their puppy when they start their puppy search? along with all other health certificates?
... if indeed there are enough breeders with all clear stock to keep the breed alive in the first place.

Well done Margaret for what you said on the film, well done indeed :)


Alison.
 
I too would like to congratulate Margaret C and Carol Fowler for speaking out publicly on the programme last night.
 
amanda L said:
I too would like to congratulate Margaret C and Carol Fowler for speaking out publicly on the programme last night.
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Me too!

Surely if the scans can be accessed then more people who do wish to breed can be more reliably informed as to the health of the breeding stock they are about to use and thus puppy buyers can be more confident in the health of their puppy and its longevity.

This would help "remove" breeders like that BIS woman from spreading painful diseases through our breed.grrrrrrrrrr If I knew where she lived I'd be protesting with banners outside informing people of her bad practices..... She could'nt care less in my opinion.
 
Bet, the information was not confidential -- many people were told that her dog had scanned with SM and it was widely known amongst breeders. Margaret merely confirmed what was known but I know there was also a signed afadavit from another source that the dog had SM.

Many of those breeders who chose to breed litters with that stud did so in FULL KNOWLEDGE that the father had SM.

On this board you will find that two people with that dog's puppies now own dogs also diagnosed with symptomatic SM.

I am aware of several other situations where dogs with SM have been knowingly bred -- or sold on to US breeders from the UK.

The problem is that too many people have hidden away problems, including MVD, behind a code of silence. That silence means fogs continue to suffer as do the people who acquire these dogs.

the owners of one dog that just got his championship -- and it also known to symptomatic SM -- have said they just wanted the championship for the dog and will now retire him to a 'pet home'. I hope they will pay the lifetime medical care of that dog as the owners will never be able to get insurance.
 
I knew that dog to be affected a while ago and I'm not even a breeder, just a pet owner with her ears to the ground.
He sired my friends young affected Tri.

Alison.
 
Bet said:
Could I mention that because of the Confidential Information passed on by Margaret C on last night's TV Film about MRI Scans ,that the Cavalier Breeders will want to now MRI Scan their Breeding Stock.
Click to expand...

This can only be a good move but according to one breeder last night, she said on camera that she quite flatly refuses to MRI scan her dogs. Lets hope she now changes her mind.


I do hope that they will realize that the MRI Scans will now be confidential that are going to be sent to Dr S Blott at the Animal Health Trust ,that she and she alone will have the information and that it Wont be being broadcast on a TV Program!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Why oh why would they want to keep them confidential????????????
What's the point ????????


What a great disservice this has been done to the Breed,just when the Cavalier Breeders had such great hopes for the Future of the Cavalier because of Dr Blott's New Type of Research .
Click to expand...

The only disservice being done to the breed is by the kartel of breeders who maintain a code of silence about the ill healh of their so called champions.

I do hope that through time the Cavalier Breeders will know that they can trust Dr Blott and will co-operate by doing MRI Scans so that her Research Work can move forward .or all that money given to Dr Blott will have been in vain
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Unless the breeders work with Dr Blott and remove affected dogs/bitches from their breeding programmes, then YES!! all that money will have been wasted :(
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Hi, I'm a new member, this is my first post. Oliver, my 7-year-old ruby, was scanned last year and has mild SM with a small syrinx and so far no symptoms. I want his scan results to be made public - why keep them confidential? When I go to shows, and when we did Discover Dogs at Crufts this year, I deliberately tell people Oliver has SM - they are amazed that he is so fit and happy, they didn't realise that many Cavaliers have no sign of their SM and therefore the fact that your dogs have no symptoms doesn't mean that they don't have the disease - and at the moment scanning is the only way of finding out. And if his breeder doesn't like me going public - tough! Oliver's father has produced other puppies with SM - he's a champion but fortunately has never been a really popular stud dog; his owner has stopped using him at stud and he still has no symptoms at 10, but she refuses to have him scanned.

I really admire Margaret Carter for her openness about her dog's SM - and Sylvia Lymer is another top breeder who is completely open about having SM in her line and has scanned all her breeding stock - all 13 or so of them! I sat at the health table at the club ch. show this year with Margaret and Sylvia and learnt so much as they talked to breeders and visitors about SM. We have got to talk about it and know what we're doing with our breeding and puppy buying.

Kate and Oliver
 
Well, I have just sat and read right through this thread and now I'd like to add my tuppence worth.

Ronnie Irving is just as bad as the bad breeders of cavaliers out there - he openly admitted on screen that he had bred Grandfather to Granddaughter in his Border Terriers - if that's not asking for trouble in future generations then I'd like to know what is! As far as I am concerned then if he is the face of the KC , it just shows them up for what they are!

Bet, whilst I have always had the utmost respect for you, I feel that in your posts all you are concerned about is that money was donated and that scans are kept private! It also angers me that you say that the past should be kept in the past. In other words it is another way of saying 'You had an affected dog - get over it!'. I'm afraid that life just ain't like that and when you see your friends losing one dog after another with this filthy disease it's bloody hard to leave it in the past.

Karlin, I'm sorry to hear that Leo is losing his fur behind his ear. Poor little love. Maxx is also losing a bit from his ear too. I certainly find mats there every single day and I know he's being brushed and groomed thoroughly and properly!

That programme was so interesting and informative (nothing new for most of us with SM dogs but good for prospective & also, uninformed owners). I sat and watched it with tears freely flowing.

In case any of you don't know, I have one dog with SM whose syrinx is about 2" from his tail and another with hydrocephalus so bad that his brain is a mere outline - we're his 5th or 6th home as no one could cope with him and his weird ways - he will learn something but forget it five minutes later. He'll go outside to do a wee but then forget and come in and do it in front of you - it's not bad training on my behalf it's just the fact that he has a brain that is barely there - the neurologist was astounded when he saw his scan!

Luckily I am home 99% of the time with the pair of them and if not me then there is almost always someone here. We have a wonderful routine that I'm sure keeps my neighbours amused. When we go out for wee, if I don't see Charlie in the act (we have a large garden) I pick him up and physically check with a tissue !!!! I've trained everyone else to do the same - great fun! :(

I do however, consider myself extremely lucky in that when I was looking for a Cavalier my Vet advised me of what to look for and also knew of a few breeders to stay away from. Maxx actually came from a friend of a friend of a friend..... I was only allowed to go and see the pups as I had been recommended to her and she to me. We were vetted for about 3 hours & she refuses to breed to show any longer. She also no longer belongs to the Cavalier club as she was so disgusted with its practises and the amount of people breeding from unhealthy dogs.

Yes, I know I'm praising her and also saying that that Maxx has SM but when I got him, scans weren't available and she was only breeding from symptomless dogs. All her dogs are heart and eye checked and Maxx's Mum and Dad were still extremely healthy when I last spoke to her a couple of months back. He is 9 tomorrow (yayyyyyy partyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy) and they were 5 and 6 when he was born. When he was diagnosed she also informed me that she would still take him back at any time - I wonder how many breeders would do that? He of course isn't going anywhere!

It really angered me on that programme that the BIS woman is still breeding from that affected dog (he should be neutered and she should be ashamed & also banned from keeping dogs) and then Veronica Hull said on camera how disgusted she was that they had confronted the woman - ermmmm hello Veronica, as chairperson of Southern CKCS you should surely distance yourself from her...... Then again, if you are reading this, we openly fell out on a forum about scanning dogs didn't we????

Sorry Karlin if this upsets anyone but it just makes me so very, very angry that these breeders are obviously just doing it for the money and not the love of the breed.

I know I don't breed Cavaliers but I grew up in a breeding household and any dog that didn't come up to health standards was promptly neutered - we had miniature poodles coming out of our ears! I had a discusssion with my Vet about breeding a while back (after going to an SM talk with him). I said that I would always have liked to breed but the whole thing scared me with all the problems in the breed. He replied that it was people like me who needed to become breeders as we would be so neurotic that we'd have all the health tests done. Sorry, to the responsible breeders, but to me, a rosette means nothing - usually just that you know the judge or your face fits ;) but health and good temperament mean everything.

Slightly o/t but same programme - that breeder of Rhodesian Ridgebacks being disgusted at the mere thought of a ridgeless Rhodesian being kept alive when they are actually usually healthier than the ridged backed Rhodesians! Unbelievable! Then again, nothing that a lot of breeders get up to is unbelievable these days!
 
Maxxs_Mummy said:
It really angered me on that programme that the BIS woman is still breeding from that affected dog (he should be neutered and she should be ashamed & also banned from keeping dogs) and then Veronica Hull said on camera how disgusted she was that they had confronted the woman - ermmmm hello Veronica, as chairperson of Southern CKCS you should surely distance yourself from her...... Then again, if you are reading this, we openly fell out on a forum about scanning dogs didn't we????

Sorry Karlin if this upsets anyone but it just makes me so very, very angry that these breeders are obviously just doing it for the money and not the love of the breed.
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I am totally with you! As chairperson of a CKCS club she has a responsibility to promote ethical breeding. I can't even describe how angry I felt when I viewed the show on youtube.

I adopted, cared for, and had to euthanize my rescue cavalier Charlie who suffered terribly from SM. Now Geordie has both SM and grade 4 MVD at only 5 years of age.

SHAME ON ANY BREEDER who takes these health issues lightly. If you cannot afford to properly test and scan your breeding cavaliers and follow the protocol, GET OUT OF THE BREED!
 
I thought of that as well, but the commentator also mentions that this breeder was advised not to breed from this dog. They don't say why but I would assume by Claire's reaction on film when told (after all she is one who believes "d" grades must be bred in order to retain diversity) that this was not a "minimal" SM diagnosis.

I might be wrong on this, but that was my take on what I saw.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier:)
 
The breeding protocol that allows for the malformation is absolutely necessary -- there are less than 1 in 10 cavaliers without the malformation going by Geoff Skerritt's 700 MRIs (many of them from breeder's dogs they believed to be clear) and every existing research project.

As with MVD the goal cannot be total elimination of SM -- the genes are too widely dispersed and the population is now too heavily affected. That is why there is now a concerted effort to stop Brussels griffons from going the same way. While many have the malformation and SM, a huge number are clear of the malformation. Cavaliers are so badly affected that the genome researchers had to use griffons to get their clear of malformation, clear of SM dogs. *They could not find enough truly clear CKCS for their baseline 'normal' genetic reading.*

The protocol would have failed the Malvern dog -- it would have had an F grade based on its original scan.

The protocol allows for the malformation and only for the tiniest syrinx at 2.5. But yes, people should understand this. Most good breeders following the SM guidelines for breeding aim for a dog with no syrinx for breeding programmes. People can read the breeding protocol here: http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/breeding/breeding/breeding.html I urge people to read and understand the background thinking on the SM recommendations for breeding and understand what many of the researchers feel is a realistic approach for breeders.

Geoff Skerritt feels this is still too liberal -- but the SM protocol was worked out with breeders to try and protect other good genes and give realistic tools to breed away from early onset SM.

Ideally as with the MVD protocol it would be better to wait til dogs are 5 to breed and still clear as that would push out even further the possibility of onset but as with MVD breeders are reluctant to wait that long for a first litter.

It is also important that MRIs be confidential for Sarah Blott's research, as it was for Clare and Penny's. I was glad my own MRIs were not public property after my dogs were MRId. I did not want my breeder under attack simply because he had produced a dog with SM, when I knew most breeders if not all probably have bred SM dogs, whether symptomatic or not. It is just that most breeders and pet owners do not MRI to know this. MY MRIs were MY business. If I was using any of my dogs for breeding, then yes, I would happily make those MRIs public. But just as human health tests are private, so should vet health tests be, especially when used for research.
 
Bet said:
Thank you Karlin for what you have just Posted

This is what could put Dr Blott's Research into jeopardy with Margaret C disclosing confidential information on the TV Film

The Cavalier Breeders could now be having doubts about co-operating with DR Blott ,this is now where the future of the Cavalier Breed lies.

Bet
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The owner of the BIS cavalier showed the scans to me, and other exhibitors, at a show.
This was soon after he was MRId by Geoff Skerritt, a neurologist who has not, as yet, released any of his considerable MRI information to any one.

The owner did not seem to understand the scan & wanted my comments.

There was a syrinx and he was under two years of age.
I told her I would never consider using him at stud & that she should tell people that asked about him that he had syringomyelia.

For years I have kept quiet about what I saw, only advising anyone who said they were considering using this dog to make sure they saw his scan or certificate.
I knew that breeders that were opposed to my" ruining the breed " by speaking out about SM, would allege I had given away information that I had been given in confidence if I was not careful about what I said.

The result..... at least 26 litters born since that MRI, the youngest that I know of being only six weeks old.
I am ashamed I did not do something before & I am ashamed of the many, many, breeders who knew of this open secret & colluded with her.

Yesterday I was phoned by someone who was with the breeder in question when the dog was scanned. She could not believe what she saw on the film because she was there when Mr Skerritt told the owner that the dog was the worst he had seen at that age, & that he should never be used for breeding.

The dog's owner has allegedly said various things since the documentary... he only has the malformation, she did not get a scan or certificate, she did not ever show me the scans, so the neurologist must have given me the information.

It is untrue. She quite openly showed me the scans at a dog show, there were other people there when she did so.

This breeder has not abided by the Cavalier Club Code of Ethics and there will be a complaint, signed by me & the lady who accompanied her to the scanning Centre, sent to the UK Cavalier Club.

Margaret C
 
Karlin said:
The breeding protocol that allows for the malformation is absolutely necessary -- there are less than 1 in 10 cavaliers without the malformation going by Geoff Skerritt's 700 MRIs (many of them from breeder's dogs they believed to be clear) and every existing research project.
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Is there a list anywhere of the pedigree of dogs tested completely clear of malformations?
I know our Jasper was one of the few and if anyones interested I'll post his pedigree. I will also try and dig out his scan as I'm sure we still have it somewhere.
 
So now that breeder should be kicked out of the club if she hasn't left already with her head hanging very low with shame ... and a ban put on her from breeding.
I just hope she is looking after that affected dog with it's meds etc.

Margaret you have nothing to be ashamed about, what you did on that film was amazing. :)

Alison.
 
So now that breeder should be kicked out of the club if she hasn't left already with her head hanging very low with shame ... and a ban put on her from breeding.
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I agree, that woman was an embarrassment to the human race!!!
 
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