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A Cavalier film, health related, BBC1........

Margaret C said:
I am ashamed I did not do something before & I am ashamed of the many, many, breeders who knew of this open secret & colluded with her.
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Please Margaret, DO NOT be ashamed. YOU have nothing to be ashamed of and in fact you are to be applauded for speaking out openly. If your comments stop just one person from trusting so called 'good breeders' just because they win at shows then in my mind it will have done a lot to help our beloved breed. :hug:
 
Alison_Leighfield said:
So now that breeder should be kicked out of the club if she hasn't left already with her head hanging very low with shame ... and a ban put on her from breeding.
I just hope she is looking after that affected dog with it's meds etc.

Margaret you have nothing to be ashamed about, what you did on that film was amazing. :)

Alison.
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Actually Alison, I think it amounts to animal cruelty and she should be banned from keeping animals let alone being kicked out of the club.

We can only live in hope that the dog is actually receiving medical care....

I agree with your comment about Margaret too - I have emailed her to say so as well x
 
Just thought I would say that I give permission for my post No.99 to be crossposted onto any other list.

Margaret C
 
I think the ideal to be aimed at is an openness that doesn't condemn anyone for having SM in their line - being so widespread, even the most careful breeder finds it hard to avoid - but total condemnation for breeders who knowingly breed from seriously affected dogs or bury their heads in the sand and refuse to scan. And great as the potential of Sarah Blott's research is, other research is also important: SM isn't going to go away overnight even when we do get a DNA test, so the Royal Vet College's controlled trial of an improved painkiller is also vital, as is the research in the US into better surgical techniques, and the ongoing work that all the neurologists do in developing better drug regimes.

Even with a DNA test, we're going to have to work hard to convince people to use it - I found it a bit depressing that only about 25% of the dogs at the Malvern Ch show were heart tested at the show - and that was free!

Kate and Oliver
 
Even with a DNA test, we're going to have to work hard to convince people to use it - I found it a bit depressing that only about 25% of the dogs at the Malvern Ch show were heart tested at the show - and that was free!

Kate and Oliver
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:eek::eek::eek: Un-Believable!!
 
I thought I had garned respect for Margaret after watching the show....but after reading her post my respect for her has gone through the roof. What an brave and strong woman. Glad to have the facts out there and known.

I am ashamed I did not do something before & I am ashamed of the many, many, breeders who knew of this open secret & colluded with her.
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I understand your shame but appreciate you coming out and being open. As to the many breeders who knew of the results and yet continued to breed....shame on them.

he only has the malformation
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That was the information relayed to me when I questioned why she would have bred 26 litters with him AFTER being told the results of his scan. I just couldn't understand that. I was told, not by a reliable source mind you, that he had the malformation only.

I think the ideal to be aimed at is an openness that doesn't condemn anyone for having SM in their line - being so widespread, even the most careful breeder finds it hard to avoid - but total condemnation for breeders who knowingly breed from seriously affected dogs or bury their heads in the sand and refuse to scan.
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Couldn't have said it better!!! There is no reason to be ashamed of having SM in a line, it's not something a person knowingly did.....but to continue to breed that dog is a travesty sending misery to so many of owners of the offspring.
 
I have deleted some posts that were better taken privately between the parties and will moderate comments as needed. Also as some of the same points have been made repeatedly I will limit those points being restated. (y)

If people have problems with that, there are other places of discussion to share those points.
 
I think the ideal to be aimed at is an openness that doesn't condemn anyone for having SM in their line - being so widespread, even the most careful breeder finds it hard to avoid - but total condemnation for breeders who knowingly breed from seriously affected dogs or bury their heads in the sand and refuse to scan.
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Yes -- agree entirely. Likewise, if a breeder says they do not have SM in their lines or do not believe they do but they have not scanned -- this is an utterly meaningless statement.

No line has yet been found without SM. If one had, believe me the world would know. The best line so far is one in Australia from a small breeder who has had several dogs scan clear of the malformation, clear of SM, which is extremely rare. It is believed that perhaps some isolated lines that didn't get crossed with the popular UK sires of the past 25 years or so are perhaps the best hopes for clearer lines.

For a clear scan to be meaningful, one must really know about the status of related dogs as well. Is that dog without a syrinx an exception in a line with a lot of SM? The Dutch scanning project has so far indicated that A grade dogs tend to have a lot of other A grade relatives around them. This is hopeful but underlines the importance of knowing more about families.

Consider Jaspar -- a clear/clear at the time (too young to qualify as an A dog though) yet his half brother Leo has SM. That may mean Jaspar is from an isolated fairly clean line or it may mean he is a rare anomoly.

I can say there are some interesting things about Jaspar. He has a wider, roomer shaped head compared to all my others and he does not have the sinus issues that all the others have -- he never snores, he almost never has snorted, he makes no noise when breathing and when asleep.
 
Karlin said:
I can say there are some interesting things about Jaspar. He has a wider, roomer shaped head compared to all my others and he does not have the sinus issues that all the others have -- he never snores, he almost never has snorted, he makes no noise when breathing and when asleep.
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Interesting, our Jasper who was completely clear had a wider flat topped head. He had no sinus issues either but did snore! Here is a photo of him for comparison purposes. He had his MRI when he was 9. His brother who is in his teens now is also SM free.

Jasper.jpg
 
I found the "before and after" pics of the Cavaliers interesting. Thanks, Arlene! I love your interest in genetics, and I too think it's fascinating. It appears that earlier Cavalier dogs had a larger head and a longer snout. So, for those that have that look now, consider it "retro"! That look may very well be coming back! ;)

So, I'll ask the question...is it this shorter snout coupled with a smaller skull that is possibly causing some of the problem, or at least starting the problem? I know the genetic component is there, but if dogs were bred and selected based on the earlier examples, would the malformation at least be bred out?
 
The skull and head shape issue has been intensively discussed with proponents on both sides. A small study was funded and Penny and Clare came back saying they could find no correlation, but the issue remains open.

Dr Dewey et all did a study of sinus size and correlation to SM.

This is the relevant info, from cavalierhealth.org:

4June 2007: Association between frontal-sinus size and SM: Dr. Dewey and others (Drs. Peter V. Scrivani, Margret S. Thompson, Kevin R. Winegardner, and Janet M. Scarlett) report in a June 2007 article of a study of 62 dogs (four of them were CKCSs) that there may be an association between frontal-sinus size and SM in Cavaliers and other small-breed dogs. They state: "Our data do suggest, however, that the pathogenesis of syringohydromyelia in small-breed dogs may involve the supratentorial portion of the cranial cavity. We postulate that syringohydromyelia develops in many small-breed dogs and certain breeds in particular as a result of global malformation of the entire cranial cavity or supratentorial portion of the cavity and is not limited to the infratentorial portion of the cranial cavity. If this is true and results can be generalized to the target population, our understanding of the pathogenesis of syringohydromyelia in small-breed dogs and several aspects of clinical management (e.g., screening and diagnostic testing, breeding recommendations for dogs with dome-shaped heads, and treatments) will require further investigation."

4May 2007: Study of possible correlation between head shape and CM/SM in Cavaliers and other toy breeds. Dr. Rusbridge and Ms. Knowler report in their April/May 2007 Research Newsletter the the preliminary results of pilot study looking at the possible correlation between head shape and CM/SM in different toy breeds. They report: "In response to some observations made by breeders on head shape, a simple pilot study was devised. Dogs were selected on the basis of head length/breadth ratio, degree of doming, and presence or absence of a ski-slope shape to the back of the head. CM/SM status was confirmed by MRI. Early results of this pilot study found no correlation, however the investigation is still ongoing. This study has been a tremendously valuable exercise in other ways. On the basis of head shape, some dogs had been presumed to be affected, and owners had originally elected against MRI screening. However some of these dogs were actually found to be free of the condition. This suggests that it is not yet possible to predict CM/SM by a visual assessment of head shape. It also provided the opportunity to obtain blood DNA samples for the Genome study in Montreal. In particular, we would like to thank Lee Pieterse for co-ordinating the project in Australia. She and her husband Frank also contributed $4000 towards the research. Sandy Smith in Canada, generously donated $8000 from the ‘For the Love of Ollie’ Fund. An additional sum of $4000 came from the ‘Syringomyelia DNA Research’ Fund. Total $16,000."
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From http://cavalierhealth.org/syringomyelia.htm#Current Research
 
I think it is important that we make our views known outside this forum.

I had heard the Kennel Club were thinking of opening a comments page on their website, but that has not yet appeared.

Please would you consider logging on to http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk , going into their 'contact us' section, & leaving a message to say just what you think the Kennel Club should be doing?

Thank you so much for your support


Margaret C
 
What about the vets?

Hi all,

This is my first post, so please be nice :)

We have a cav who is 3.5 years old. He started scratching after about 1 year. At first we thought nothing of it (being our first dog) but when he kept scratching and scratching we started to get worried. When he went to the vets for his usual checkups we used to tell them about the scratching but they just told us not to worry. 2 years later and we have now changed vets. We mentioned the scratching to the new vet who told us Alfie may have SM. After several tests and an MRI scan later, it was confirmed that Alfie has quite severe SM. Luckly for us, Alfies symptoms are that he scratches and he very rearely cries. Seeing the Cav crying on the TV plus the other breed (forget which one sorry) having a full grand mal epileptic fit had me in tears.

To say that we were a little angry was an understatement. The fact that we had mentioned it to the vet 2 years before and on subsequent vists and was told that it was nothing and not to worry. We dread to think the pain that he went through in those two years. Luckly the new vet has diagnoised the problem and we are now trying the medication which will hopefully ease the pain for the dog. We know that there is no cure for this and also that if nothing works, we can go for surgery, but that is not without its own risks and there it is not certain that this will fix the problem.

Has anyone else had problems with vets either ignoring symptoms or not knowing about SM.
 
Yes, this is quite common. Despite many breeders -- including several of those shown on the BBC film -- insisting that the reason so many cavaliers 'seem' to have SM is because vets are overfamiliar with the condition, think every scratch is SM and are swamping neurologists with unaffected dogs, the reality (as I know from many, many emails over the years like yours) is just the opposite.

To give some perspective though -- this is really a specialist condition. It is normally very rare in dogs. Most vets and even some neurologists are not aware of the prevalence in cavaliers. They will treat for other things and not explore SM as a possibility when all other approaches to the mystery condition have failed to work.

I think that will change after the documentary, which means many more dogs will get pain relief and help, earlier.

On my SM site, www.smcavalier.com, I have documents that can be downloaded and given to vets. I always suggest doing this for all vets in an area, to raise awareness, when possible.
 
A Little Reassurance

I have read on a couple of posts of some owners being scared that their dog may have SM because they have noticed (due to the program) that their dog is scratching, possibly more than normal.

I am no vet and I am not a specialist in this area so can only repeat what my vet told me..

"There could be a number of reasons as to why your cav scratches which can be easily treated"

If you are worried about your cav scratching (or showing any other symptom) then please seek advice from a professional. They will be able to look at your cav and assess them properly.

Before Alfie was diagnosed with SM he underwent several other tests to make sure that the scratching was not caused by something simple. It was not until these tests were completed that he went for his MRI scan and was diagnosed with SM.

In our case, our cav did have SM, but please, please, please, do not think that if your cav scratches, then they must have SM. Again, if you are worried then seek advice.
 
hello

first off hello to everyone im new to the forum, but have had cavie,s from the age of 5yrs. i watched with great shame and must say deep sadness pedigree dogs exsposed. i cant get my head round what these so called breeders are doing to this breed. margaret carter i take my hat off to you and if in anyway i can help you i will, i live just down the road from you so again if i can do anything just ask.

i do seriously hope that these breeders are going to be removed from all breed clubs and inturn never have their contact details passed on to anyone looking to buy a c.k.c.s puppy. i also hope they are happy with themself's and the pain they have KNOWINGLY caused to so many puppies and owners.

as for the k.c and the money they have given seems to me a case of give them that and shut them up.
 
sorry if my first post sound's bad of me. but i want to own the c.k.c.s for yrs to come and not have it taken away from me by people who just dont care. again sorry if it sounds harsh.
 
but i want to own the c.k.c.s for yrs to come and not have it taken away from me by people who just dont care.
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No it doesn't sound harsh -- I think we all feel this way. It is why supporting research is important -- and exposing the people who so ruthlessly exploit the breed.

There are far more stories that could be told and many are as bad or worse. All exhibit a disregard for the individual dog at risk of inheriting compromising, painful diseases, the breed as whole, and the people who bought a much loved dog in good faith. What Margaret did was take a brave and knowingly controversial public stand in a situation where it is almost impossible to expose these people and the suffering had just kept going on and on and on. There are more dogs about, some pictured glowingly on the breed club sites, that are SM affected and symptomatic, and many, many breeders know exactly who these dogs and breeders are. Yet the system folds in to protect itself. Under KC ethics, such dogs should not even be shown. So many breeders knew the situation with the Malvern dog and said nothing; and as others have noted, the judges let them compete and awarded the prizes. The others might murmur amongst themselves but no one takes a stand. Someone, somewhere, needed to draw a line over a known and appalling situation. That was done by Margaret. The situation was NOT a secret -- others knew and had been told publicly. No one was asked to keep the SM status a secret and many in the breeding world knew (again raising the issue -- how COULD they then go ahead and use that dog at stud? :sl*p: It is just beyond belief -- way beyond belief especially for those of us with symptomatic SM dogs that deal with this terrible disease every day).

The Kennel Club, if it wishes to prove its seriousness about breed health, needs to talk to all the breeders of those 26 litters and find out if they were told the sire had SM. If so -- then the breeders of all those litters are in clear violation of the KC code of ethics, both because they put the breed at risk by breeding litters with such a high risk of SM, and because they presumably sold the puppies without informing the owners of the status of the sire, which is misrepresenting the puppy.

If they are looking into the situation of the peke, I would like to know if they will review the situation with those 26 litters. It is easy to find the breeders -- all the litters will be listed in the puppy gazette.
 
100% agree with karlin :xfngr: the people will all be made known 26 litters is alot of litter {i feel} from one stud dog anyway. would seem the money always means more to people than the well being of the breed.

we have alot of people in rottweilers who should not even own them let alone breed them.

what are the breed clubs doing re this stud dog owner?
 
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