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Cavalier Breed Notes

WoodHaven said:
You are going to be breeding by government protocols-- great. We have seen here how much the legislature DOESN'T know about breeding animals in the US. They have turned to the Animal Rights Fanatics to get their views.
AND We all know how much government 'HELPS' a bad situation. Just look at America now. yikes.
Click to expand...
The NSW Government Animal Welfare Code of Practice had been prepared in consultation with not only Veterinary Specialist but also "Dogs NSW", and which is the state controlling body and registry for our National Kennel Club called the ANKC, the equivalent of your AKC and the UK Kennel Club.
.
 
rotfl-- the AKC rejected one of my litter registrations because it said that my dam was a male. It took a short phone call to get it straightened out.
What the AKC doesn't know about health tests could fill universes. As we are told, they are just a registration body. The individual breed clubs are the ones that advise on health tests.
 
Sandy, people in Australia are tired of all the repetitive talk that has been going on for many years, and it is time that things are done so that changes can start occurring in the dog world.
.
 
What repetitive talk?
If we can't create 'perfectly healthy' humans-- WHICH we ALL have a vested interest in-- how can we produce perfectly healthy dogs. There are over a hundred "hereditary human defects" vs. the cavaliers, what 16-- a cocker has almost twice that many. I can't find the website regarding each breeds predisposition to hereditary diseases, but it is out there on the web.
 
Sandy and Eddy, just wondering do CKCS CLUBS in your part of the World have what the UK CKCS CLUB has done, not accepting Cavalier Puppies for their Cavalier Puppy Register from Untested Heart and Eye Parents.
 
Bet the Cavalier Clubs in Australia do NOT have what the UK Club has just done. BUT I think that ALL dog and cat breeders in the state of NSW had better read the following, and compliance with the standards specified in this Code is a requirement under Government Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Regulation. We now have 2 states with Government Codes Of Practice involving dog and cat heritable diseases, and I think that in time all of Australia may have such Codes.

NSW Government
"Animal Welfare Code of Practice Breeding Dogs And Cats"

10.1.2.2 Where a heritable disease is recognised in a breed and where there is screening procedures or a test for that disease the person in charge in the case of a stud cat or dog or bitch or queen should:
• have a current official evaluation or test result for the dog or cat for such hereditary disease;
• provide the official evaluation or test result to the owners where the dog or cat is to be mated to an animal not owned by the breeding facility;
• provide the official evaluation or test result of both the sire and the dam to the new owners of any puppy or kitten;
• endeavour to ensure that the genetic make-up of both sire and dam will not result in an increase in the frequency or severity of known inherited disorders.
.
 
I have received a private email with a correction about the UK Cavalier Club Puppy Sales Register, and which I welcome as it helps to clarify things and which I can learn from, note.

"The CKCS Club HAS NOT refused to put puppies on the register from non-health tested parents.
The questionnaire simply asks for applicants to tick the YES OR NO box when it comes to health testing.... NOWHERE does it say puppies will not be added to the 'for sale' list if the parents are not tested.
There are ABSOLUTELY NO RESTRICTIONS ON THIS NEW FORM REGARDING WHETHER PARENTS ARE, OR ARE NOT HEALTH TESTED."
.
 
Does anybody here in Britain know about this, in the recent UK CKCS Club Magazine it mentioned that the Committee have decided that we will shortly be implementing a Requirement that only Puppies from Heart and Eye Tested Parents can be Advertised on the Club Puppy Register.

I have now checked the UK CLUB Web SITE ,the mention of the Form was on the CKCS CLUB Web Site last week, to-day it seems to have vanished,
 
Just feel I have to make a further comment about Eddy's Post, what is clear on the Form is the mention about whether the Sire and Dam of the Cavalier Puppy has a Current Heart or Eye Certificate.

That surely is the most important information that can be being given to a Prospective Cavalier Buyer, if the Cavalier's Sire or Dam don't have a Current Heart or Eye Certificate that says yes , well......
 
WoodHaven said:
What repetitive talk?
If we can't create 'perfectly healthy' humans-- WHICH we ALL have a vested interest in-- how can we produce perfectly healthy dogs. There are over a hundred "hereditary human defects" vs. the cavaliers, what 16-- a cocker has almost twice that many. I can't find the website regarding each breeds predisposition to hereditary diseases, but it is out there on the web.
Click to expand...

I supose the only difference is that humans have the last say- our dogs dont get to choose who they mate with, unless im mistaken?
Humans dont breed to spred genes ( well most anyway) they produce children because its a human right to do so and because they want and love kids-its a natural process of life and death. but dogs have been interfered with to the point of no return in some cases through no choice of there own.

karen
 
Surely if cockers have even more genetic problems this only underlines the very serious problem with dog breeding at the moment -- that problems have been compressed into breeds to such an extent that in many cases if these breeds were in the wild, the entire population would have died out? Also, number may not be as important as the seriousness and pain inflicted by a given genetic problem -- I do think MVD and SM in cavaliers, as serious, unacceptably painful and sadly, widespread problems outweigh many of the genetic problems in other breeds. I'd rather have the longer genetic lists of problems in some breeds than MVD and SM, which some geneticists believe threaten the survival of this breed or at least must raise the question of whether to continue with a breed in which a large number will die early and painfully?

Humans also are a very poor comparison example. The entire population of humans do not mate with the genetic equivalent of the number of people on the average jet -- or in the case of many breeds, the genetic equivalent of the number on a propeller commuter plane! There are also strong taboos in every human society against the kind of close family matings that are common choices made for dogs by dog breeders (sibling matings, parent/child matings, grandparent/child matings, cousins, and very often, the same dog reappearing in a dogs' lineage many times -- the equivalent of an ancestor producing offspring with say, one's grandparent, parent, aunt, and a sibling...all in one's direct family tree). And people who know they are at risk of passing along genetic diseases for which there are solid tests do tend to take the responsible approach of testing both partners, and weighing the ethics of producing a child in high risk circumstances.
 
Karen and Ruby said:
I supose the only difference is that humans have the last say- our dogs dont get to choose who they mate with, unless im mistaken?
Humans dont breed to spred genes ( well most anyway) they produce children because its a human right to do so and because they want and love kids-its a natural process of life and death. but dogs have been interfered with to the point of no return in some cases through no choice of there own.

karen
Click to expand...
.

All animals breed to procreate-- since the dawn of time. An inborn instinct, in fact.
My point was-- the science isn't there to support breeding ANYTHING near perfect. All living beings have gene faults. Some are apparent at birth, some show while we age. Bad eyesight-- faulty genes.
People haven't always been able to choose there own mates. Women were often considered chattel.
 
Karlin said:
Surely if cockers have even more genetic problems this only underlines the very serious problem with dog breeding at the moment -- that problems have been compressed into breeds to such an extent that in many cases if these breeds were in the wild, the entire population would have died out? Also, number may not be as important as the seriousness and pain inflicted by a given genetic problem -- I do think MVD and SM in cavaliers, as serious, unacceptably painful and sadly, widespread problems outweigh many of the genetic problems in other breeds. I'd rather have the longer genetic lists of problems in some breeds than MVD and SM, which some geneticists believe threaten the survival of this breed or at least must raise the question of whether to continue with a breed in which a large number will die early and painfully?

Humans also are a very poor comparison example. The entire population of humans do not mate with the genetic equivalent of the number of people on the average jet -- or in the case of many breeds, the genetic equivalent of the number on a propeller commuter plane! There are also strong taboos in every human society against the kind of close family matings that are common choices made for dogs by dog breeders (sibling matings, parent/child matings, grandparent/child matings, cousins, and very often, the same dog reappearing in a dogs' lineage many times -- the equivalent of an ancestor producing offspring with say, one's grandparent, parent, aunt, and a sibling...all in one's direct family tree). And people who know they are at risk of passing along genetic diseases for which there are solid tests do tend to take the responsible approach of testing both partners, and weighing the ethics of producing a child in high risk circumstances.
Click to expand...

I think humans are a wonderful example because we are very genetically diverse and STILL plagued with health issues. We choose our partners (now) and still have childhood leukemia, huntington disease, down syndrome-- all horrible.

I had a dog with an autoimmune disease (worse than MVD and SM) I had a rescue with a list of ailments, worst was Epilepsy (worse than MVD, probably same as SM-- but the other ailments killed him before he was 2 1/2).

In nature-- incest is rampant// full sibs even.
 
WoodHaven said:
I think humans are a wonderful example because we are very genetically diverse and STILL plagued with health issues. We choose our partners (now) and still have childhood leukemia, huntington disease, down syndrome-- all horrible.
Click to expand...

I disagree with human being an appropriate example. First off, no people are selected for breeding the way dogs are. Of course humans have a genetic load, as do mutts, like any living creature and if not actively selected against, this load will continue with its only buffer being diversity. In the past with all animals, including humans, the hardships of nature culled from breeding many that are not culled today - natural selection or survival of the fittest. In creating breeds we have replaced natural selection but our criteria is not as harsh and at the same time we have disallowed diversity by closing gene pools. This type of breeding can in no way be compared to breeding that has gone on from the dawn of time.

Second, a statement comparing numbers of health issues (of which many are extremely rare) but which ignores prevalence is grossly misquided. It is the prevalence of specific diseases in certain breeds that has made them scientist's best friend in their efforts to find the causative genes for diseases . . . we may benefit, but it is sad for the dogs.

The prevalence of Chiari Malformation (herniated tonsils) in humans is less than one in 1000 and we know it is much above that is Cavaliers.

MVD is also about 21 times more likely to occur in Cavaliers than in the typical dog.

These prevalence rates are scary!

It also should be kept in mind that segregeted and inbred small human populations suffer even from inbreeding depression and increased prevalence of inherited diseases -Hapsburgs, Tudors, Romanoffs amongst others.

WoodHaven said:
In nature-- incest is rampant// full sibs even.
Click to expand...

What do you back this statement with? I usually refrain from posting but could not let this go. Undomesticated animals go to GREAT lengths to avoid inbreeding. Practically all animals and plants have evolved structural, physiological and/or behavioral mechanisms which discourage pairings between close relatives.what is commonly known as inbreeding avoidance. This is practically universal in nature. It is, however, one of the first things lost under domestication, because it tends to interfere with the immediate objectives of individual human breeders which we can now see can be short sighted.

There are lots of studies and papers on this topic. Here are just some.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/88288.php

http://www.biologynews.net/archives...eding_avoidance_in_wild_capuchin_monkeys.html

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=19063


While I understand the point that there will always be risks with breeding puppies and perfection is an impossibility, I believe most of us who love our pets want the risks to be mitigated as best as possible.

Surely asking those in clubs that proclaim themselves as guardians to these breeds to assure that they are guiding their breeding programs making the best use of current scientific knowledge in regards to breeding, and health testing so that they can make the best decisions, is not too much?

BTW - even some of us humans with a probable genetic load do undergo genetic testing before bringing children into this world.
 
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Karlin and Oreo,

Thank you Both for such sensible Posts.

Hellmuth Wachtel who lives in Austria,has often mentioned that Wolves will travel many,many miles to Mate , the seemingly can smell if a Mate is not compatable to Them.

I sometimes wonder if in the Cavalier World ,I have heard Cavalier Breeders talking about a Cavalier Bitch being a Squealer when she is being Mated,( Us Pet Lovers of Cavaliers can imagine my thoughts when I heard this being discussed, but I had better keep off this subject ,but I was shocked to know that a Cavalier Breeder would put a Cavalier Bitch through the Pain she was suffering ,for what !!!),

As OREO ,has just mentioned ,it has been Proved that Undomesticated Animals go to great lengths to avoid In-Breeding.
 
I've been catching up with this thread, ie the Cavalier Club's decision to include a health results form for MVD on the Puppy Register.

I welcome this, of course. However, the MVD breeding protocol states that the grandparents of puppies should be five years old and free from MVD. I think this form should include the heart information of all four grandparents as well as parents. I believe we would then see a fairly rapid inprovement in heart health.

The Cavalier Club take these small steps (which are to be welcomed) but why don't they take a bigger step? After all it would simply be endorsing a protocol which has been in place for over ten years, and it would show that the CLub really means business in terms of breed genetic health.

Carol
 
It's very much welcomed.
However if only breeders who strictly adhered to the protocol were allowed to advertise their puppies,it would be a very short register indeed.
Sins
 
Oreo said:
I disagree with human being an appropriate example. First off, no people are selected for breeding the way dogs are. Of course humans have a genetic load, as do mutts, like any living creature and if not actively selected against, this load will continue with its only buffer being diversity. In the past with all animals, including humans, the hardships of nature culled from breeding many that are not culled today - natural selection or survival of the fittest. In creating breeds we have replaced natural selection but our criteria is not as harsh and at the same time we have disallowed diversity by closing gene pools. This type of breeding can in no way be compared to breeding that has gone on from the dawn of time.

Second, a statement comparing numbers of health issues (of which many are extremely rare) but which ignores prevalence is grossly misquided. It is the prevalence of specific diseases in certain breeds that has made them scientist's best friend in their efforts to find the causative genes for diseases . . . we may benefit, but it is sad for the dogs.

The prevalence of Chiari Malformation (herniated tonsils) in humans is less than one in 1000 and we know it is much above that is Cavaliers.

MVD is also about 21 times more likely to occur in Cavaliers than in the typical dog.

These prevalence rates are scary!

It also should be kept in mind that segregeted and inbred small human populations suffer even from inbreeding depression and increased prevalence of inherited diseases -Hapsburgs, Tudors, Romanoffs amongst others.



What do you back this statement with? I usually refrain from posting but could not let this go. Undomesticated animals go to GREAT lengths to avoid inbreeding. Practically all animals and plants have evolved structural, physiological and/or behavioral mechanisms which discourage pairings between close relatives.what is commonly known as inbreeding avoidance. This is practically universal in nature. It is, however, one of the first things lost under domestication, because it tends to interfere with the immediate objectives of individual human breeders which we can now see can be short sighted.

There are lots of studies and papers on this topic. Here are just some.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/88288.php

http://www.biologynews.net/archives...eding_avoidance_in_wild_capuchin_monkeys.html

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=19063


While I understand the point that there will always be risks with breeding puppies and perfection is an impossibility, I believe most of us who love our pets want the risks to be mitigated as best as possible.

Surely asking those in clubs that proclaim themselves as guardians to these breeds to assure that they are guiding their breeding programs making the best use of current scientific knowledge in regards to breeding, and health testing so that they can make the best decisions, is not too much?

BTW - even some of us humans with a probable genetic load do undergo genetic testing before bringing children into this world.
Click to expand...

You've attack many different aspects of this all on one post-- makes it difficult to answer clearly.
 
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So Sins , I guess you are saying the Cavalier Breed is in the mess it's in with their MVD Problem, is because some of the Cavalier Breeders have not been heeding CKCS Club's Breeding Guidelines Protocol.
 
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