In Reply from another Cavalier Pet Owner

[Karlin]

The problem is that with the widespread serious disease in this breed, all breeders need to be working together. Little will change and the rate of affectedness is only going to get ever worse if many breeders continue to breed without getting and using scan information about their dogs. this is exactly the same as breeding dogs without ever listening to hearts and just hoping that from outward appearance you can tell how healthy a dog's heart is. Just as with SM, the disease can be very bad before you start to see outward signs with MVD. No intelligent breeder would ever accept that this is an ethical approach to heart health in cavaliers; why is it considered okay to do this for a serious neurological condition that seems to be just as widespread or heading towards being that way?

There is also the issue of fairness and commitment. It is all very well for a single breeder to state that she or he has the choice or not to use EBV's -- but the only reason any breeder has the opportunity to use them in the first place is that other people have scanned their dogs and submitted results, and any breeder that uses them is benefiting from what others have done. In other words every EBV is built on the cooperation of many breeders. Moreover, the breeders who choose not to scan and not to submit results are damaging the EBV system. Every time a breeder chooses not to scan, that detracts from the overall knowledge and big picture and the accuracy of every single EBV. In addition, if breeders only submit their good results, the EBV's will be skewed to present a far more positive picture than actually exists and all the effort and money and consideration that has gone into setting up the program to benefit breeders and the breed as a whole will be undermined to some degree.

I cannot stress enough how important it is for every pet owner who has had a dog scanned -- if that dog has a pedigree and is registered -- to submit those results to Sarah. Pet owners tend to scan because their dogs have problems and therefore they are far more likely to have the essential information on affected dogs that will make the EBV system more accurate.

Also, breeders and pet owners need to verify with the person doing the scans that they are submitting the information to Sarah. There is no organized attempt to do this, it is up to the individual doing the scan. If you have scanned dogs it would be worthwhile to check with the center that scanned them to make sure the results went to Sarah or to submit the results yourself making a note that you aren't sure if they were submitted.

 

[Tania]

Out of interest, Tania: when you use the words "Some breeders",to exactly how many breeders are you referring? Also, do these 'breeders' come from your personal experience or is this information you have acquired?
I would be interested to hear.
Elspeth

My own personal two experiences!

We bought Molly first from a lady who claimed she only bred one litter a year, she is KC registered (which I thought was good). I had researched the breed but obviously not well enough! I kept in touch with the breeder sending photos etc. Molly has knee patella, hip dysplasia, her bones are crumbling, and finally she was diagnosed with SM. I contacted the breeder in a friendly manner as I knew Molly had a sister and I was hoping the other owner could be warned plus I was hoping the breeder would not breed from this stock again. I did not want compensation, I was devastated and needed some help and advice. I really did not know what to do!

It was because of PDE I contacted Margaret and Carol Fowler who suggested I went to see Clare Rusbridge. My vet had not heard of sm so with respect at this time he wasn't really a great help.

We bought Dougall at the same time from a resonably well known breeder, Dougall has in the main been reasonably healthy, once again I kept the breeder informed with photos and progress reports etc. Dougall developed some issues and eventually was diagnosed with cm. Once again I went back to the breeder only to discuss because I wanted to know more about his siblings and parents. Once again I have drawn a blank the breeder has refused to speak to me.

I have a bigger issue with the first breeder, I have found out since she advertises on Breeders Online constantly. A Friend has on my behalf made enquiries as recently as last night, she trots out the same story "I Only Breed One Litter a Year"! She is currently advertising Cavapoos!


Mollys breeder clearly does not know what she is doing and is churning out puppies purely for money!

I havn't judged the second breeder because I believe she is genuine and cares about the health of her dogs. I just feel disappointed!

It could be argued I should have researched better, at the time I thought I had. Everything looked right but in Mollys case it could not have been more wrong.

So I have had two experiences from two different breeders , both not good but I do not condemn Dougalls breeder.

If it had not been for PDE Molly would not be here now !

 

[Murphy]

Karlin,
Not being of a Narcissistic nature I am unsure if your post is in reply to anything I wrote, but you do mention something I would like to take up, if I may?

I agree that all breeders need to work together. That goes without saying and is one of the areas which greatly concerns me. I would even add that breeders, pet owners, and indeed anyone who is involved in any way with cavaliers ought to be trying very hard to work together.
This will only be achievable if in the right atmosphere.

In a way, it is rather like some of the advice you regularly give to owners who are trying to resolve an issue with one of their dogs.
You often advise that a calm approach to problems works better than punishment?
If I am wrong, feel free to correct me.
You have also given much good advice on how to assess a problem, from both points of view (in this case the dog's point of view and the owner's).
This is where clear thinking is required so that each problem can be approached from the right angle which may not be the same for every dog,( or person).

Apologies for using such an allegorical approach, but it does seem to me to follow that such sound advice could serve us well in the resolution of the problems of disease currently identified in our breed.

We all work in different areas.Some are owners of cavaliers, others simply love the breed and have an interest in what happens to it, and, some are breeders.

This is a difficult time for everyone - no one is exempt.

Would this not be a good time for us all to try to work together?

I have been involved with Sm now for what seems a long time, and, after muych clear thinking, have come to this conclusion.

Elspeth

 

[Murphy]

My own personal two experiences!

We bought Molly first from a lady who claimed she only bred one litter a year, she is KC registered (which I thought was good). I had researched the breed but obviously not well enough! I kept in touch with the breeder sending photos etc. Molly has knee patella, hip dysplasia, her bones are crumbling, and finally she was diagnosed with SM. I contacted the breeder in a friendly manner as I knew Molly had a sister and I was hoping the other owner could be warned plus I was hoping the breeder would not breed from this stock again. I did not want compensation, I was devastated and needed some help and advice. I really did not know what to do!

It was because of PDE I contacted Margaret and Carol Fowler who suggested I went to see Clare Rusbridge. My vet had not heard of sm so with respect at this time he wasn't really a great help.

We bought Dougall at the same time from a resonably well known breeder, Dougall has in the main been reasonably healthy, once again I kept the breeder informed with photos and progress reports etc. Dougall developed some issues and eventually was diagnosed with cm. Once again I went back to the breeder only to discuss because I wanted to know more about his siblings and parents. Once again I have drawn a blank the breeder has refused to speak to me.

I have a bigger issue with the first breeder, I have found out since she advertises on Breeders Online constantly. A Friend has on my behalf made enquiries as recently as last night, she trots out the same story "I Only Breed One Litter a Year"! She is currently advertising Cavapoos!


Mollys breeder clearly does not know what she is doing and is churning out puppies purely for money!

I havn't judged the second breeder because I believe she is genuine and cares about the health of her dogs. I just feel disappointed!

It could be argued I should have researched better, at the time I thought I had. Everything looked right but in Mollys case it could not have been more wrong.

So I have had two experiences from two different breeders , both not good but I do not condemn Dougalls breeder.

If it had not been for PDE Molly would not be here now !

Tania, I feel for you as I know exactly the problems you have had to face.
I was interested in asking you the question, because I wanted to know how many 'some' referred to,
As you have explained, it refers to 2 breeders, only one of whom, I think I am right in saying, you would describe as: " uncaring"?
So 'some' actually means 1.
The reason I asked was so that I could reply to the second part of your final sentence where you said that 'some breeders.............................are dragging the good breeders down"

Somehow, I can't see those statistics holding up, can you? One breeder who doesn't care and another who might be described as less than supportive, is simply not enough to drag down me, or any one of the other breeders who do care or do give support.

To be fair, I understand that such ideas are bandied about regularly, so it is all too easy to take them on board.
If the media, or anyone else, sees fit to use such amateur Psychology, be
ready to think for yourself. Form your own opinions, based on what you know.
BTW, I suppose you do know that Dougall is a very normal cavalier? So enjoy him!
Sadly, Molly is not, and will need much input from you. Be strong for her!
Kind reagrds,
Elspeth

If such was the case, then no progress whatever would have been made by the caring breeders

 

[Bet]

In Reply from Another Cavalier Pet Owner

I do hope that the Author of the Article in Norma Inglis' Breed Notes this week, making such disparaging comments about Cavalier Pet Owners who have never bred any Cavalier Litters ,only want 5 minutes of Glory ,and have brought the Cavalier Breed to it's Knees ,( and Murphy says we should not bother about what is being said about some of us for all the World to see on the Cavalier Internet Forums)!!!will take time to read the Comments at

www.dog magazine.net

The Comments are made about Carol Fowler by her MP,Mr Clifton-Brown,and I think that Carol will be one of the Cavalier Pet Owners R.Smith had in her mind when she made her Scurrilious Claims against some of us Cavalier Pet Owners.

The Comments by Carol's MP, mentions that Carol will be having a meeting with a Couple of Shadow Conservative MP's .

Carol's MP comments further, saying about Carol's work, that he was struck ,not only by her Compassion for Animals and her Dedication but by the Strength of her Case.

On behalf of all us Cavalier Pet Owners ,who have shed so many Tears because of the Suffering our Cavaliers have had to endure and their Lives being cut Short.

Thank You so Much.

 

[Tania]

Tania, I feel for you as I know exactly the problems you have had to face.
I was interested in asking you the question, because I wanted to know how many 'some' referred to,
As you have explained, it refers to 2 breeders, only one of whom, I think I am right in saying, you would describe as: " uncaring"?
So 'some' actually means 1.
The reason I asked was so that I could reply to the second part of your final sentence where you said that 'some breeders.............................are dragging the good breeders down"

Somehow, I can't see those statistics holding up, can you? One breeder who doesn't care and another who might be described as less than supportive, is simply not enough to drag down me, or any one of the other breeders who do care or do give support.

To be fair, I understand that such ideas are bandied about regularly, so it is all too easy to take them on board.
If the media, or anyone else, sees fit to use such amateur Psychology, be
ready to think for yourself. Form your own opinions, based on what you know.
BTW, I suppose you do know that Dougall is a very normal cavalier? So enjoy him!
Sadly, Molly is not, and will need much input from you. Be strong for her!
Kind reagrds,
Elspeth

If such was the case, then no progress whatever would have been made by the caring breeders

Dougall is not a normal Cavalier he is also under the care of Clare Rusbridge.


TWO Breeders who have not sm screened their dogs and are still not willing to discuss or contributte to the well being of the future of Cavalier Breeding = SOME !! This is factual not based on my feelings !

 

[Marjorie]

I agree on a calm level headed approach and that we all need to work together I think there is still a need for a lot of education on the subject for all parties. THis is a wide spread problem and resources can be very slim for some. WHere I live we don't even have access to animal MRI's and would have to travel out of province quite a distance (Canada is a BIG country) to have our dogs scanned. We also don't have a big population of Cavaliers so trying to get the necessary info and resources is challenging.

I can appreciate everyones concern, especially those with dogs affected. Unfortunately, the wheels grind slowly, but they do grind and I think more can be done in the spirit of cooperation, education and understanding than in mud slinging and blaming. It is going to be a long road out of this and if everyone is at war it's gonna make it a lot longer for our beloved Cavaliers. Better to ask how we can help one another through this.

 

[WoodHaven]

Dougall is not a normal Cavalier he is also under the care of Clare Rusbridge.


TWO Breeders who have not sm screened their dogs and are still not willing to discuss or contributte to the well being of the future of Cavalier Breeding = SOME !! This is factual not based on my feelings !

And as Elspeth and I have both experienced-- you can MRI until you are blue in the face and SM will STILL smack you down. I followed the MRI protocol to the letter and got a whole litter of affecteds (2 out of 2). But I have no one to vent on-- no one to blame but the person in the mirror.

 

[sins]

Bet,
I read the notes also and didn't feel that any scurrilous remarks or comments had been made.
If you considered this person a friend,then perhaps in the interest of conserving that friendship,it's better to say what you have to say off line and pick up the phone? or msn messenger?
That lady is also a member of this forum and has never been confrontational or offensive and is entitled to choose whatever medium she wished to vent the frustration that pet owners feel for whatever reason.
There's no doubt that all the anger,fighting and bitterness is demoralising.
Demoralising to small hobby breeders who are testing and trying their best to improve the health of future generations of cavaliers while keeping their heads above water.Demoralising to possible puppy buyers who aim to buy their pups from these small breeders.Demoralising to people like me who fear waking up one day and seeing a couchful of sick cavaliers all in a row.
How will the cavalier breed ever attract any new breeders to the ranks if current breeders lose the will to breed?If they lose the joy and delight of producing their latest litter,when it all becomes too much of a burden.
Then where do we think we'll get our pups from?
Yep,boot of a car in the local market or the latest trendy new petshop with stock from Cav-a-farm.
Yes it's true that breeding two Mri A dogs can still result in pups who will go on to develop SM.But at least breeders who deal with this can say they've done everything practicable to avoid this situation and there is nothing more that can be expected of them.Hopefully over coming generations and with the advent of the EBV scheme that the numbers of affected cavaliers across the "show population" will reduce with each successive generation.
This really seems to be the best that we can hope for but we know there's no quick fix solution.
Sins

 

[Murphy]

Tania,
I am sorry to hear that Dougall is under the care of a neurologist. I have heard of a few cavaliers who have demonstrated symptoms of the disease, without the presence of a syrinx.
My mistake is understandable, as, from my own experience, I have seen the scans of only 2 Cavaliers with NO CM. So I was using that as a yardstick to suppose that Doigall was just like all the other cavaliers. I have heard anecdotal evidence of others, but have not seen their scans or certificates.
I did not intend to offend you by saying that Dougall was a normal dog, but was simply trying to encourage you to 'look on the bright side'.

As to your comments about ' 2 =some'. We must agree to differ there.
Thank you for your replies.
Kind Regards
Elspeth

 

[Tania]

And as Elspeth and I have both experienced-- you can MRI until you are blue in the face and SM will STILL smack you down. I followed the MRI protocol to the letter and got a whole litter of affecteds (2 out of 2). But I have no one to vent on-- no one to blame but the person in the mirror.

My point is not directed at people like you or Elspeth, it is directed at people who do not want to help save this breed and they exist!

 

[EddyAnne]

I have seen the scans of only 2 Cavaliers with NO CM.

I hope that DNA samples were sent to the Genetic Researchers as those 2 Cavaliers might be vitally important in finding the genes for CM in Cavaliers. Has anyone else heard of any scanned Cavalier that did NOT have CM?
.

 

[Karlin]

Sandy, who read and graded the scans for the parents? Is someone in the midwest doing this now (I think only Dr Marino at LIVS was part of the panel using the actual grading scale?). I do know a lot of scans have not had the same interpretation given by the original neurologist when viewed by one of the panel of neurologists that have convened at the two international conferences and who agreed the grading protocol, and certainly have seen for myself scans where the dog owner was told no CM or herniation and even I could see CM and herniation, having looked at a fair few scans by this time. I also know neurologists within the scheme have seen presyrinxes and other concerns where neurologists and radiologists missed them on a dog. So there is a huge variation in interpretation, unfortunately, and I think many of the As out there in the US and UK are not verified As at all but non-experts interpreting scans (my best friend reads breast MRIs -- is actually the leading expert in the world at this at Sloane Kettering Cancer Centre in NYC -- and says reading MRIs is not a simple task and open to misinterpretation. There is a mistaken notion that scans are easy to read and syrinxes easy to see but actually they are not unless they are quite prominent, and CM is missed by many unfamiliar with what it looks like.

The other issue is the problem of when scans were done. The genome research for example is using only dogs clear and older than 6 to try and reduce/eliminate the issue of earlier-onset SM. Many breeders have been scanning at only age 1 rather than at a minimum of age 2.5 (with older being even better), and assuming a grade from that (again, with the majority never getting a proper grade but just guessing at one) and many dogs with those early scans will definitely go on to develop SM or may have the start of syrinxes which are missed.

The issue abut these guessed-at grades is very serious -- it is why breeders in the UK have pushed for the BVA/EBV scheme which will have two neurologists that are within the scheme and have an agreed approach to interpretation, issuing a grade.

It would be very helpful to researchers and the breed to interpret the scans of parents that are assumed to be A and go on to have affected offspring, or the reverse, I am sure. Contributing such information would bring research a step forward towards reducing the incidence of this condition and helping both breed and breeders.

The great thing about the incoming scheme for UK breeders is that they will have a guaranteed interpretation from within a structured scheme, for grades. Hopefully it will be extended to other countries too.

And to go back to the original point -- the scans and results of parents and offspring would be critical information for assessing the guidelines and would be helpful to so many other breeders when pooled with other results -- please do submit this information to researchers. And still: the overall results from several generations now of Dutch breeders MRIing and having actual grades and grade certs (so, verifiable) issued has been a great increase in A offspring even within a few generations. There will be exceptions and that may well be due to many things -- dogs MRId before syrinx development/ MRId too young / coming from parents themselves affected by asymptomatic etc. There are no easy answers but the definite wrong answer is definitely to just go ahead breeding dogs that are actually known to have significant syrinxes or not scanning at all, as surely they are much more likely to pass on the condition (as with dogs with actual heart murmurs).

 

[Bet]

In Reply from Another Cavalier Breeder

Sins,

Too late for that now.

I have taken enough from the Cyber Bullies, as you will no doubt know what has been hurled at me.!!!

I have read and re-read Karlin's yesterday's Post , that sure says it all about what is wrong in the Cavalier World to-day.

Will All Cavalier Breeders ever agree to Health Test their Cavalier Breeding Stock, MRI Scan their Breeding Stock, and send the Results to Dr S Blott,not Breed from Cavaliers before they are 2.5 years of age. ?

I can't talk about the SM Problem ,but the MVD Problem in our Breed is sure in the Mess it's in to-day because of some Cavalier Breeders.

I am not going to argue with you Sins, but for sure I believe that the Future of Cavaliers,if it has a Future, lies with Carol, Karlin, and Margaret.

You mention about Puppy Farms and BYB'S ,all I know is that , our Cavaliers who did not have the chance to live into an OLD AGE and died young because of the MVD Problem ,came from UK CKCS CLUB Cavalier Breeders.

I see that in the Bateson Report any Dog Breeder who is Licenced to Breed Dogs ,is called a Dog Farm.

 

[HollyDolly]

more complicated than it appears to someone who has never tried to do it .

People who live in glass houses do not throw stones.
It is not yours, or anyone else's, prerogative to tell any breeder what they should or should not do, unless:
(a) you have bought from them a defective puppy
and
(b) they have refused to acknowledge same or support you.
or
(c) you have been misled as to the health of either parent of your puppy.

Elspeth

As to the first statement of yours, you have know idea who I am. As to the second statement again you have no idea what litters I have bred, what deffective puppies I may have bought or indeed if I have been misled as to the health of either parent of the puppy.

I am sorry you feel unable to confront your fellow breeders but until breeders unite in the whole procedure of health testing than there is little hope for this breed.

Nanette

 

[Bet]

In Reply from Another Cavalier Pet Owner

I have noticed in the Past couple of days comments about Cavalier Breeders thinking about not Breeding Cavaliers any-more because of all the Hassle and remarks about Cavalier Breeders.

Could just maybe the reason ,with the Publicity from the Bateson Report on the TV and Press about Cavaliers' Brains being too Large for their Heads , be that the Dog Buying Public could be steering clear of Cavaliers?

 

[EddyAnne]

I do know a lot of scans have not had the same interpretation given by the original neurologist when viewed by one of the panel of neurologists that have convened at the two international conferences and who agreed the grading protocol, and certainly have seen for myself scans where the dog owner was told no CM or herniation and even I could see CM and herniation, having looked at a fair few scans by this time. I also know neurologists within the scheme have seen presyrinxes and other concerns where neurologists and radiologists missed them on a dog. So there is a huge variation in interpretation, unfortunately, and I think many of the As out there in the US and UK are not verified

Due to interpretational differences with MRI scans I think that the Proposed BVA Procedure will help address situations involving interpretational differences. The system utilises two approved panel members who both read the MRIs and if they do not reach a consensus decision where they disagree then the matter is referred to the arbitrator. I wonder when this proposed system will get under way.
.

 

[sins]

Maybe Bet, there are breeders out there who care passionately about the welfare their dogs,who lie awake worrying about their health of their stock and worrying about their customers??
Who perhaps just can't do this any more because all the excitement and joy they felt at bringing new life into the world has been sucked out of them??
Could it be that they don't care as much about pursuing ribbons as you might think?
Sadly Bet these are exactly the people we should be buying our cavaliers from.
Sins

 

[WoodHaven]

I have noticed in the Past couple of days comments about Cavalier Breeders thinking about not Breeding Cavaliers any-more because of all the Hassle and remarks about Cavalier Breeders.

Could just maybe the reason ,with the Publicity from the Bateson Report on the TV and Press about Cavaliers' Brains being too Large for their Heads , be that the Dog Buying Public could be steering clear of Cavaliers?

A number of good breeders are quitting. I know of a few in America-- far away from your Bateson Report or PDE program. IF you make any fun leisure activity (Hobby breeding) too onerous, people will quit-- or they will just breed for themselves and GIVE puppies away.
PDE gave ALL purebred dog breeders a bad name-- I feel like I am confessing a huge sin when asked what I do.

 

[Murphy]

Nanette,
I am glad to be able to use your Christian name. You are quite right, I do NOT know who you are, but would be pleased to hear more about you,then, in the light of what you say, rephrase any remark which you feel may have been inappropriate.
Best Wishes,
Elspeth