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In Reply from another Cavalier Pet Owner

I don't know if this will add anything to the conversation, but I have an almost 9 year old neutered male Blenheim who has no syrinxes. He had an MRI in December for a disc problem and his neurologist found no evidence of SM. I have sent a copy of his MRI on a disc to Clare Rusbridge. I have also sent his DNA sample to Penny Knowler in Canada. He is the only one of my dogs who is from a backyard breeder. I never got papers because she drove the puppy to me and said she had forgotten them and would mail them. Eight years later and I still haven't gotten them even after repeated e-mails and phone calls. She just wanted my money to keep churning out puppies.

My 2 year old has a hear murmur and second degree A-V block and he is under the care of a cardiologist, but is stable and on no meds at the time. He had an MRI to see if his weakness could be neurologic in origin vs cardiac. He has the malformation but no syrinxes. My 7 year old had decompression surgery 18 months ago for severe and advanced SM. She is maintained on daily prednisone right now and is doing fair. My 6 year old (and half-sister to my 7 year old), is doing fine, but has not been MRI'd since there is no reason to put an asymptomatic spayed female under anesthesia for an MRI.

These three are all from the same breeder who was devastated by the news of Oz's heart murmur (diagnosed at 5 months of age) and Riley's SM (not diagnosed until she was almost 6). The breeder heart tests with a cardiologist before breeding, but does not MRI. She said she only knows of one other of her dogs with SM - but that is just all she is aware of. In defense of breeders, so many people don't keep in touch with their breeders and therefore breeders may not know the extent of SM in their lines. Mine was so upset with my news that she said she was going to stop breeding and she had Oz's mother spayed. Just my two cents worth for this discussion.
 
WoodHaven said:
A number of good breeders are quitting. I know of a few in America-- far away from your Bateson Report or PDE program. IF you make any fun leisure activity (Hobby breeding) too onerous, people will quit-- or they will just breed for themselves and GIVE puppies away.
Click to expand...

One of the problems is that MRIs are available and relatively cheap in the UK and much more difficult and expensive in America. I know it is not easy for cavalier breeders overseas.

That does not however mean that the breeding of cavaliers with SM is any less of a welfare problem, whatever part of the world the litter is whelped.

Dog breeding, even on a small scale, is not an ordinary 'fun leisure activity' and in fact I find it difficult to comprehend that you can put it in that category.
Golf or model making are fun leisure activities.

When you take on the responsibility of bringing a living breathing being into the world then, I would suggest, you also take on the responsibility of doing all you can to try and give that animal a life that does not need increasing amounts of medication to control pain.

It is a tragedy that cavaliers have been so badly hit by this inherited problem, but it has happened, there is no magic wand, no easy fix. Things will never be the same and no amount of complaining will change that. If breeding to a protocol, to give the breed a chance of a future, is too onerous, then it probably is best to quit.

The researchers did not invent SM, they did not spread it. It is due to their hard work, and their determination in the face of breeder indifference, that gene research started so many years ago.

We have a lot to thank them for.
 
Margaret C said:
One of the problems is that MRIs are available and relatively cheap in the UK and much more difficult and expensive in America. I know it is not easy for cavalier breeders overseas.

That does not however mean that the breeding of cavaliers with SM is any less of a welfare problem, whatever part of the world the litter is whelped.

Dog breeding, even on a small scale, is not an ordinary 'fun leisure activity' and in fact I find it difficult to comprehend that you can put it in that category.
Golf or model making are fun leisure activities.

When you take on the responsibility of bringing a living breathing being into the world then, I would suggest, you also take on the responsibility of doing all you can to try and give that animal a life that does not need increasing amounts of medication to control pain.

It is a tragedy that cavaliers have been so badly hit by this inherited problem, but it has happened, there is no magic wand, no easy fix. Things will never be the same and no amount of complaining will change that. If breeding to a protocol, to give the breed a chance of a future, is too onerous, then it probably is best to quit.

The researchers did not invent SM, they did not spread it. It is due to their hard work, and their determination in the face of breeder indifference, that gene research started so many years ago.

We have a lot to thank them for.
Click to expand...


IF the hobby breeders find the hoops too onerous-- you'll be looking for cavaliers from research scientists or byb doing it under the laws reach. You think that is better??
 
WoodHaven said:
IF the hobby breeders find the hoops too onerous-- you'll be looking for cavaliers from research scientists or byb doing it under the laws reach. You think that is better??
Click to expand...

I would be looking and encouraging others to look, for a puppy from the responsible health testing breeders who, despite the hoops, love cavaliers enough to try and breed out this painful condition.
 
For the 1st time today I had a lady come up to me whilst out walking and asked 'is that them dogs with that brain problem'- yes i live in essex!LOL

I replied yes and informed that Ruby was infact one of those dogs.
She had seen the article on the news so Im very glad it was included on the main stream news.
I had a lovely conversation with her about puppy farms (she seemed oblivious) and why these dogs are so poorly.

She said that she had seen a puppy in the local pet shop that looked wike Ruby and Im confident that she will no longer be goig back to look at that puppy- esp when I informed her of our vets bills!!!

all im saying is that we can all do our bit even if it is one person at a time!
 
In Reply from Another Cavalier Breeder

Thanks Margaret for your Post.

When I read the Post you were replying to, no wonder some of us are wringing our Hands in Despair.

Breeding Cavaliers is not a Cottage Industry.

I only hope for the saving of our Cavalier Breed ,that Cavalier Breeding will only take place under the Guideance of the Resarchers.
 
In Reply from Another Cavalier Breeder

I just can't help having a bit of a Wry Smile after the Mention of Long Lived Cavaliers on the CC List ,I know I am thought of the Lowest of the Low by some Cavalier Folk, but I do have a List of about 2,000 Long Lived Cavaliers aged from 12 years upwards ,along with the ages of their Sires and Dams that I was able to find out about,held at the Kennel Club Library in London.

I think I would be about the only Person to find out about the Oldest Cavalier in the World ,who was TUPPENCE,who lived to 19 years -4 months - 3 weeks.

Her Sister ,Penny ,lived to 17.6 years

Their Sire was Ewecote Blue Blazer ,lived to 13 Years and their Dam was,Snowball Martini Mona

I also wrote to the UK CKCS CLUB suggesting that they might consider having a List of Long Lived Cavaliers on their Web Site ,which is now up and running.

I am proud of doing this Research ,but it still does not blind me to the fact that the Cavalier Breed has two Terrible Diseases ,SM and MVD,that could finish off Cavaliers .

On my Soap Box again, I really feel that this can only be being averted if All Cavalier Breeders Health Test their Breeding Stock.

I know it can be said that there are Cavaliers who do live to a normal old Age, I have proved it.

But there are here in Britain to-day around 100,000 Cavaliers living at 10 years of age .

About 50,000 of them will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age.
 
Bet said:
Thanks Margaret for your Post.

When I read the Post you were replying to, no wonder some of us are wringing our Hands in Despair.

Breeding Cavaliers is not a Cottage Industry.

I only hope for the saving of our Cavalier Breed ,that Cavalier Breeding will only take place under the Guideance of the Resarchers.
Click to expand...

So you LIKE the idea of puppy farms??? That would be the opposite of a 'cottage industry'(tho it is truly about manufacturing- not breeding).


The definition of Onerous is that there is NO BENEFIT-- or that the work to get any benefit negates the desire to make it so.
 
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In Reply from Another Cavalier Pet Owner

No ,I sure don't like Puppy farms, but if the Researchers into the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavalier Breed were to be involved in giving advice and in control of some Cavalier Breeders on Breeding Guidelines, then the Health of Cavaliers might have a chance of improving.

I do think though that the Pet Buying Public will now be having a say in what is happening in the Dog World.

The biggest benefit to us Pet Dog Owners is the Internet.

Suddenly the Dog Buying Public is paying attention .

We have the Hard Hitting Pedigree Dogs Exposed TV Program to thank for this .

As more and more information begins to get through to the Public ,those folk with Sick Dogs ,will no longer see their Expensive Vet Bills as a Stroke of Bad Luck ,but that the Bitter Truth is that many numbers of Pedigree Dogs are Diseased, Defective,and Deformed.
 
Just an example from a U.S. cavalier pet owner. If I needed / wanted to have Holly scanned, I would have to travel over 1500 miles (about a $400 plane ticket plus hotel and expenses) and pay at least $2500 for the scan and exam. I live almost smack dab in the middle of the United States. As Karlin has noted, there are people who scan and then there are those who are truly expert at interpreting these scans. Thus the need for travel.

I'm not making a comment on whether scans should be done by pet owners (unless there is a medical need, of course). I'm just trying to shed light on how truly onerous this is here.
 
In Reply from Another Cavalier Per Owner

Could I just say that there may be others on the List who have been as confused about the SM Problem afflicting our Cavalier Breed as I have been.

Recently though , things are starting to fall a wee bit into place about the Problem , here are my thoughts .

In the Bateson Report ,it was said that the Cavalier Brain continues to grow after the Skull has Ossified .

This could link in with what was recently mentioned by Dr C .Rusbridge and Others in a Recently Published Veterinary Paper about what seems to be the Premature Growth Closure of the Cavalier Skull

Also this has been mentioned by Dr I. McGonnell,.

This only appears to be happening with the Cavalier Breed

This seems to be being involved with not enough space inside the Head of Cavaliers, as Karlin has mentioned.

This is just my thought ,I wonder in the Fullness of Time the Researchers will discover if Cavaliers who have a Bigger Space inside their Heads, in other words Larger Heads, will have more room for the Brains that are still growing after what seems to be the Premature Growth Closure of their Skulls.

Is this information all the more reason now for Cavalier Breeders to heed the SM Breeding Guidelines and not Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age.?

Will this be the age before it's known if what has happened , with what seems to be the Premature Growth Closure of the Cavalier Skulls ,that Syrinxes will have appeared.?

Surely if this is the case, and I don't know, but no Cavalier Breeder should be taking the risk of Breeding and MRI Scanning Cavaliers before 2.5 years old,and also Prospective Cavalier Breeders asking when buying a Cavalier Puppy ,at what age the Sire and Dam had been Mated.

Finally may I say ,it still Rankles with me to have been Accused of Bringing the Cavalier Breed to it's Knees as was claimed at

www.cavaliers.co.uk

in the Cavalier Chatterbox Notes this week.

I feel so distressed at what was said about me.

I love the Cavalier Breed ,and have done so for around 35 years, no we never were Cavalier Breeders only Cavalier Pet Owners,.
 
In Reply from Another Cavalier Pet Owner

I don't know whether the SM Problem in our Cavalier Breed ,and as Professor Sir.P. Bateson has remarked in this week's Dog World, this is because the Cavalier Brains are too Big for their Skulls, is linked to very close In-Breeding ,I guess the Researchers will find this out.

In the 1930's to get the Cavalier Breed Established Mother was Mated to Son,Father to Daughter ,Brother to Sister .

Unfortunately the 2nd World War Started in 1939,to keep the Cavalier Stock going in the 1940's ,this same Cavalier Breeding Program had to be carried out ,but the problem was ,this In-breeding went back to the Original In-bred Cavalier Stock.

Mrs Pitt, the Founder of the Cavalier Breed in the 1920's ,wrote in the UK CKCS CLUB Magazine in1957,saying that ,No Thought had been given in the 1940's in Cavalier Breeding Programs to the Future of the Cavalier Breed

This is maybe where the Cavalier Breed differs from other Dog Breeds .

The Cavalier Breed just started in the 1930's from In-bred Cavaliers, then in the 1940's was further complicated by more In-Breeding.

It's all very well saying that it's OK in the Cavalier World to be Breeding Grand-Mother to Grand-Son, and Grand-Father to Grand- Daughter ,that the Geneticists say there will be no problem, but maybe in other Dog Breeds that advice is fine, but with the History of the In- Breeding Back - ground of our Cavalier Breed, maybe that advice is wrong.

Since Grand- Father to Grand- Daughter and Grand-Mother to Grand- Son Matings have been carried out in the Cavalier Breed for around the past 50 years, and with the Cavaliers' In- Bred Back-ground are to-days' Cavaliers paying the Price with their SM and MVD Health Problems?

It has been quoted or more than one occasion ,even by the Late,Great, Francis Pickett of the Welham Kennels, that if a Dog is the Grand-Father of a Puppy on Both Sides that Puppy Is In-Bred

There is a Saying ," A Weakness is Stronger than a Strength"

This means that Any Weakness will be Greatly Intensified.

This is what happens when In- Breeding is Carried out.

So should Cavalier Breeders really be paying attention to the Cavalier Pedigrees for their Breeding Programs.
 
In Reply from Another Cavalier Pet Owner

As an up-date to my Previous Post about the In- breeding in our Cavaliers, in the 1930's-1940's, I have now contacted Professor Sir P Bateson with this information, who had mentioned that Grand-Father to Grand -Daughter and Grand-Mother to Grand -Son was In-breeding, in his Recently Published Report

Also asking whether because of this In-Breeding at that time, and that for the around the Past 50 Years ,Cavalier Breeders have been carrying out Grand- Mother to Grand-Son and Grand-Father to Grand-Daughter Matings,is the Cavalier Breed different from other Breeds because of this happening.

Will Geneticists be aware of these facts, and should different advice be being applied to Cavalier Breeders.?
 
In Reply from Another Cavalier Pet Owner

Just before I let the matter drop, about being accused of bringing the Cavalier Breed to it's Knees .

Could I say that I am not a Cavalier Breeder, have never Bred any Litters of Cavaliers, so if it has been brought to it's knees as has been claimed ,this must have been done by some Cavalier Breeders , and I don't think all the Blame can be put on the Puppy Farmers and BYB's ,since 20 years ago Cavalier Breeders in theUK CKCS CLUB were warned about the serious MVD Problem Afflicting Cavaliers, and that at the Recent UK CKCS AGM ,the Cardiologist said that 50% of Cavaliers will suffer from a Heart Murmur by 5 years of Age .

How can I be being blamed for that Statement.!!!!!

An Apology to me would'nt go Amiss, but as the Saying Goes

I WON'T BE HOLDING MY BREATH!
 
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