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Our baby girl... is born!

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Brika said:
Well OF COURSE they can! I'm simply asking the question... do you all have money in the bank to PAY outright for every possible health problem that might maybe could happen to your cav????

Seriously???

And if we couldn't... we aren't worthy owners?
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I don't think anyone is saying you're not worthy. Cavaliers have a high incidence of genetic/hereditary problems because the gene pool is extremely small. I personally decided to go to a responsible breeder after reading about Cavs for a LONG time, including all the health issues involved. I learned about just how a good breeder goes about deciding which dogs to breed together; the traits they are trying to breed into and away from. I knew I had to find a breeder that did all the recommended health testing. This testing has nothing to do with "vet checks"... like routine physicals. This testing is done by specialist like cardiologists, orthopods, opthamologists, neurologists.

I don't know if it's "most" of us here, but we purchase health insurance which covers hereditary problems. I have two Cavaliers, and the insurance for them is approximately $70USD per month. I guess that's my way of banking the money needed if a serious problem like Mitral Valve Disease (MVD) or Syringromyelia (SM) or deafness or luxating patellas happens. There are many stories in the SM and MVD area about dogs suffering from these terrible problems.

With MVD, a MAJORITY of Cavaliers will eventually have some Mitral Valve Disease. Dogs who are bred without regard to genetic issues cause this problem to increase in both frequency and severity. Most, if not all, reputable breeders study the genetics of their breeding stock to lessen the likelihood of MVD. It's a difficult thing to do. If your breeder got these dogs older and without lineage proof it will be impossible to tell if these pups will have heart problems... how early they will start, etc. My breeder provided to me documents that proved that she health tests her breeding dogs for MVD with CERF/OFA, which is a dog health testing organization that keeps a data bank on heart health, as well as a data bank on hip dysplasia and other genetic disorders in different pure bred dogs. These documents are available on the internet.... they include registration numbers that I can look up anytime to check on how my dog's parents heart health is doing. She has cardiology heart checks on her breeding dogs every year, and has them re-certified.

With SM (a neurological skull malformation.... the skull case is not large enough to hold the brain, which herniates out the back of the dog's skull, causing mild to severe neurological symptoms including nerve pain, screaming, obsessive scratching/biting) it is estimated that a majority of Cavaliers... up to, what?, 70-80% have some degree of the malformation. The treatments for this include a variety of medicines, and/or surgery that can extremely expensive... like up to $20,000 or more for lifetime care. Unfortunately, the only way to tell if a dog has SM at this point is an MRI, which in the USA costs a bundle... depending on area $1,200 - $2,500 usd.

So, serious and prevalent health issues in this breed is what the issue is in the opinions voiced here. Indiscriminate and callous breeding hurts this breed terribly because it undoes and reverses any progress that is made by the passionate people who are trying to scientifically breed to reduce these sorts of problems.

I suggest you read the areas that Karlin has set up about the health issues Cavaliers have.

If I were in your shoes, I would ask for my deposit back. Depending on the amount paid, I might even be willing to forfeit the deposit and NOT take the puppy.

I would read this site thoroughly, including the SM and MVD information. I would check the American CKCS site and get the contact list for breeders in your area, and contact them by phone. Go visit them. Learn to ask questions about health checks on their breeding stock. Some breeders will put you on a waiting list, some won't, but you will begin to feel better about the puppy choice you make. Some people here have waited a year for a puppy... that's plenty of time to save the money needed for the outright puppy purchase. Then when you do pick up your puppy (at 10 or 12 wks of age ;) ) you will know in your heart that you did all your homework and have a puppy that will have the best odds of being healthy, happy and easy to train. If you want to especially make sure your bank isn't broken in case a health problem DOES arise, purchase health insurance that covers genetic/hereditary conditions as soon as you bring the puppy home.

Good luck on your decision! Feel free to email or PM me if you'd like!
 
Great post, Barb. And even beyond that, I personally have a problem lining the pockets of people who don't care enough about our breed to take the best examples and try to replicate or improve that, instead of just any dog. And who knows the conditions these dogs live in. Anyone who seemingly has 5 breeds going on, and litters from them, and in variations that aren't recognized, ie, mini's , as well as hybrids, well, I found it very difficult to socialize and keep 1 litter healthy, socialized , and loved. I don't want to support their activities, no matter what, because I want all dogs to live in a home where they are a member of the family, and not a vehicle to support their income. In fact, I want backyard breeders to go away, and the best way I know how, is to encourage people not to buy from them.
 
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Brika:

A lot has been said to you by a lot of folks on this list, mostly out of love for this breed and concern that you have a good experience with your first Cavalier. Whether you should proceed with the purchase of this puppy is a decision only you can make. Before you make the final decision you should get answers to a couple of questions related to the health clearances of the puppy's parents and grandparents. Information on the questions to ask can be found on this Board and on lists such as http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com/. To protect you and to support good breeding you want to have the parents and the grandparents tested for eyes, knees and hips and most importantly for MVD (Mitral Valve Disease or heart problems). The breeder ought to provide you with not just her word but with the paper work showing the test results. It would be great to also have MRI testing for SM (Syringomyelia) but at the very least your breeder ought to know what SM is and be able to discuss it with you and provide you with a written personal statement (or better yet a statement from her Vet) that the parents, and if she can find out, the grandparents, at this time do not have symptoms of SM. If she can not provide you with this information, you may decide you want to do ahead and take the puppy anyway. If you do, do so with your eyes wide opened and recognize that you are at increased risk for serious health problems, your puppy may not be a purebreed Cavalier and, if you take her at seven weeks, there may be behaviorial issues since she missed the last critical week with her mother and siblings. In a sense if you adopt this particular puppy without the health clearances and at only seven weeks you are taking risks similar to those folks who "rescue" Cavaliers from shelters or auctions take and should be prepared, as they are, to accept the real possiblity of problems or "issues" with your puppy. If you decide not to adopt this puppy but to keep looking, be aware that AKC registration alone is no guarantee, that you still need to check that all the breeding health protocols have been followed and that even then there is no guarantee but the risks are greatly reduced. Whatever decision you make, when you have a Cavalier, regardless of where he or she comes from, the members of this Board will be happy to help you raise her as long as you are willing to work hard to have her grow up happy, to care for her needs and, of course, to love her. Best of luck to you!
 
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I would like to post on the issue of early socialisation. My elder girl is not a rescue in the strictest sense of the word, and she came originally from a well known line here in Northern Ireland. For whatever reasons, though, something went wrong. Holly was rescued at 8 weeks by the owners of her father. They think she was the only surviving puppy in the litter, as both mother and Holly were *severely* malnourished- to the point that the vet wanted to call animal protection. After another 6 weeks or so of care, Holly recovered, but....

Her dad's owner did not have a litter at that time, and so Holly never had the experience of rough and tumble with fellow pups, and she was so frail that it wasn't suitable for her to be with the older dogs. Now, she's brilliant- smaller than most Cavs, stubborn and spunky- but there's no denying that she's neurotic, and it took a long time for her to first learn (as a pup) how to play at all (something that many owners of adult rescue dogs also comment on) and later, when I got Amber, it took Holly a long time to work out how to interact with a second dog on a regular basis.

Amber, by contrast, came to me from a litter at 12 weeks. She was loved from day one, had all the right experiences and socialisation... and she's a happy, confident personality with none of Holly's little 'issues'... yet, as I said in an earlier post, I doubt I'd use Amber's breeder again, even though I have no complaints and Amber is disgustingly healthy.

Cavaliers ARE an endangered breed. This is one breed where you cannot afford to compromise. It's not worth it in the long run.
 
Update

Today our dreams of THIS cavalier are shattered. I am not a person who easily admits when I'm wrong... but I think this time... I am.

I have been on the fence for a week now about our puppy. As I've stated before I had some reservations that I wouldn't have had if I hadn't have began to research more about cavaliers, but once I realized that there were some warning signs I shouldn't dismiss... I began to worry.

Here's what is up as of now.

The breeder promised me photos as of last Tuesday. They didn't come... I emailed twice... didn't want to be impatient... but my husband and I and our kids are very excited and wanted to post photos each week around our home as we began to purchase supplies for our new family member. On Sunday I emailed again and more forcefully asked for photos. She sent them. I was excited again and thought maybe we were finally on our way to an understanding. She knew were are coming to get the puppy and that we have young children, she knew I was concerned about the health of the puppy and that we were excited to meet the parents and SEE where the puppies have been rasied. I figured, we'd placed our deposit, we'd travel there and check things out for ourselves in person and then make our decision.

Today I get an email... stating that her "inspector" had now told them that they must get a health exam that will cost an additional 100.00. I was confused (and another red flag popped up) because she had said we needed one before and it would be 50.00 (she said because "Shala" as we've already named her would be going out of state).... so I called and asked her what this was all about. At the time of this call she didn't mention the inspector but said that the price would maybe go up from the originally quoted 50$ to 100 or more depending on how many puppies she could take to the vet at the same time, because the vet charges less the more puppies she examines at one time. Okay, I said (still being nice). So I ask what all is included in the exam? She says basically, eyes, nose, knees, temp, stuff like that. I then asked for the number to her vet so I could ask some questions about what she looks for etc. She became very defensive and asked me what I wanted to know. I said that I'd like some history as to what tests are done wtih your puppies, find out about shot records, worming etc... so I could coordinate appointments with our vet once we take the puppy home. She told me that she didn't know why I needed all that information because she and her husband do the shots and worming and that the vet hadn't seen the puppies since their dew claws were removed. She said that she has dealt with "people like me" before and that it isn't fair to her vet to come out of the exam room to constantly answer calls about puppies she hasn't examined yet. I explained again that I wanted to be sure that we were taking in a new family member that is health but that I didn't expect the vet to tell me about THIS PARTICULAR DOG... just visit with me a bit about what she tests for etc. I metioned that I've heard that Cav's have issues with eyes and hearts and I wanted to ask the vet that she used to clarify my questions. She finally stated that she'd let the vet talk to me when she took the pups in for their exam... that at that time we wouldn't be bugging her and we could get more information while the pups were actually there. I pressed a bit further and she said do you want your money back? I paused and said what we want is a healthy puppy. She said that she's never had any issue with a puppy and that she'd never sell a bad puppy, yada, yada, yada... I said I'm sure that is true but I don't know you... and this is a lot of money for us. ALSO, we have two children (and we do child care!!!) who are excited and waiting for a healthy dog, not one we'll get attached to and have die weeks later or live with life threatening problems... that I'm not accusing her, but trying to be careful.

When I asked her again how far she was from des moines... she told me and then said one other thing that sent off the final HUGE red flag for me. She said that many people when they come want to walk through the kennnels. And that they simply don't allow that. She said her and her husband wear gloves, booties, and hair coverings when they enter and that she doesn't allow others in. I asked if we would see the parents and she said she though probably the dad, but she was unsure about the mother because it's too hard on her to be around all those people when she's been with her puppies. AND that she has to be sure that she doesn't get pregnant for at least another year so the mom is kept seperate from the others and she doesn't want to take the chance on them getting together. She said that's all I'm going to say about that and we hung up. I was now in tears... holding photos of sweet puppies we've named... "Shala" ordred crate for, collar, lead, books galore... and looking at two kids who are wondering what is up. I called my husband and we're now SEARCHING desperatly for a puppy that will work for us... ANY IDEAS??>?>?>>?? We want a good pet qualiy dog, and we're willing to pay what we need to to do that...

One last thing... I called around the town where the kennel was located trying to find the vet she mentioned (first name only). (which by the way was two different names during two differnet phone calls). I didn't find the vet... but found one they used to use. I talked to the vet directly and asked questions. She wouldn't say anything either way. I asked if they cared about their puppies, she said "mostly". I asked why they didn't use them as vets anymore and she said we had "issues" with them. She wouldn't say what. It was an odd call... and yet another red flag.


About 2 hours ago she calls and leaves me an apology message and asks me to please call her back, says she's had a bad day and is sorry.

I'm thinking I'll email and say that we think maybe for us it's better to find a puppy closer to us since we're worry warts... that we're sure her puppies are wonderful and we're sad that the transaction won't work. Ask for our money back. (which she offered once... but her web site says the depostis are non refundable, so we'll see)... I'm thinking since we used paypal that I can file for non recieved goods since we won't get the dog and hopefully the email stating the increase in price will also help us win our claim if she doesn't refund.

Now, the last thing I need is a bunch of "told you so's"... we're devastated right now... sad about our bad transaction, and even more sad about those 8 puppies that are in "probable" bad conditions. We loved our puppy and we hadn't even held her.

Now, we're not trying to rush into another bad puppy deal... but rather take what we've learned and find another puppy that we are comfortable with.
 
Way to GO!! GOOD JOB! You stuck to your guns and you aren't going to let that breeder swindle you out of your money and your affections.

Considering the breeder already offer you your money back, I'd do exactly as you said and ask for it. She'll probably hand it over, and be glad to be rid of someone who could get her in SERIOUS trouble.

Hang in there for the perfect puppy. Some disappointed kids are much better than heart-broken ones!!

Bravo! You're a brave, brave woman!
 
Oh I am so sorry :( What a bummer. Where are you located at?? I'm sending you a PM :)

Great job and way to go for staying strong!
 
I'm so sorry. You must be so disappointed. Have faith that the perfect pup will come you way.
 
So sorry, but the perfect pup is out there for you. Take your time and listen to the very knowledgeable people on this site. I got my little one from a recommendation on this site, and I couldn't be happier.
 
Thanks everyone... we're just very sad right now and have begun to look elsewhere. I'm hoping we find another puppy before summer is over as we don't want to bring a tiny pup home in the middle of a Minnesota winter.
 
I'm so sorry you've been through this awful experience - sadly there are many horrid people out there who only want to make money and don't really care about the puppies they breed...

I know this is very upsetting for you, but it's better that you've found out now, and won't be in the situation where you bring a wee one home, and then face possibly heartache and huge vets bills...

You have learnt a lot from this experience and will hopefully now find a responsible breeder and the perfect puppy for you - wishing you the very best of luck in your search.
 
Oh, I'm sorry for your disappointment, but glad that you've decided not to go through with it... and re your worries about winter, I think someone here said (arasara, maybe?) that housetraining in the depths of a snowy winter was actually very easy since once the puppy twigged what was wanted, he did his business quickly without messing around! Have you tried pm'ing those members close to you for recommendations?
 
Brika: What you did was very hard to do and you should be proud of yourself. I do not know where to send you but know that the right puppy will come your way. If you let folks know the town or at least area where you live some folks may be able to refer you to reputable breeders who have current puppies or who are expecting puppies in the near future. Even then make sure you do an independent check. Hoping for a new little critter in your family soon.
 
That is a wonderful decision! There are too many red flags to proceed. We are in Wisconsin and our breeder currently doesn't have puppies, but here is a link the the club's breeder list that shows 4 reputable breeders that currently say they have puppies. This is a small kennel club and everyone knows everyone else. These breeders are just the type you should be looking for:
http://www.ckcscsw.org/Page3-CKCSCSW-BreederInfo.asp
Good luck! It is better to make a good decision now, than to suffer for years with the consequences of a potentially unhealthy dog.
 
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It's a shame that there are people like this, really is. I hope you find the puppy that is right for you & the kids!
 
yes it was me that had to train Faith in the middle of a Canadian Winter! :yikes

It was actually quite easy to be honest with you. It was so cold outside that there was no time to "stop and smell the flowers." She would go out, do her business, and RUN back in.. hehe :)
 
I had the same experience training Zoey in Canadian winter weather. No time for fooling around! It was a very easy process.
 
:flwr: Hugs to you, Brika, for making such a hard decision!

I know it may have seemed harsh here. I'm hoping you are able to see that those of us who posted to you only want the best for the breed, and the best for you and your family. I predict you will find a darling puppy who will fit right in like you wouldn't even believe!

Just remember, when you do we all expect to see pictures!! :snap:

Good luck in your search, and best wishes, too. Remember, you've braved this tough circumstance... if you have ANY questions at all feel free to post them here.
 
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