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Our baby girl... is born!
- Thread starter Brika
- Start date
- Status
She is refusing to refund our deposit. So, we're trying to convince her. She's very MAD at us.
Our last call she did say she'd refund it if she sells the puppy. But hey... shouldn't she sell it soon since they were all sold within 2 weeks of birth?
I'd really love my money back, but I'm not getting the puppy no matter what.
We DO HAVE A NEW lead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's our big news. It's a small breeder who has only a female and this litter. The dad is an AKC champion (I don't care but it sounded good) they have heart checks, come with a health guarentee! AND she is happy to have us talk to her vet and see the parents and her home where the puppies have lived (no kennels)
The puppy is a lot more money... double in fact. BUT, we felt very comfortable with her, she wasn't pushy, rude, or acting supeirior. She seemed very honest and sweet.
We won't make the same mistake twice... we're going this weekend to check her out! (She's close to us) and we probably can take the puppy home soon. (they are 8 weeks now, and she said as soon as she feels they are ready) We're excited and very, very... CAUTIOUS!!!!!!!!!
Again, (no flaming please) only the dad is AKC registered... mom isn't... but again we don't care about that. Just health and pet quality.
The health guarentee (five years for heart) and 1 year for any life threatening, really made us feel much more comfortable.
Please think happy thoughts about our refund and the possibilty of a new puppy.
thanks! :rah: (I'm trying to hold myself back... but UGH!!!!!!!! it's so hard)
Our last call she did say she'd refund it if she sells the puppy. But hey... shouldn't she sell it soon since they were all sold within 2 weeks of birth?
I'd really love my money back, but I'm not getting the puppy no matter what.
We DO HAVE A NEW lead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's our big news. It's a small breeder who has only a female and this litter. The dad is an AKC champion (I don't care but it sounded good) they have heart checks, come with a health guarentee! AND she is happy to have us talk to her vet and see the parents and her home where the puppies have lived (no kennels)
The puppy is a lot more money... double in fact. BUT, we felt very comfortable with her, she wasn't pushy, rude, or acting supeirior. She seemed very honest and sweet.
We won't make the same mistake twice... we're going this weekend to check her out! (She's close to us) and we probably can take the puppy home soon. (they are 8 weeks now, and she said as soon as she feels they are ready) We're excited and very, very... CAUTIOUS!!!!!!!!!
Again, (no flaming please) only the dad is AKC registered... mom isn't... but again we don't care about that. Just health and pet quality.
The health guarentee (five years for heart) and 1 year for any life threatening, really made us feel much more comfortable.
Please think happy thoughts about our refund and the possibilty of a new puppy.
thanks! :rah: (I'm trying to hold myself back... but UGH!!!!!!!! it's so hard)
matties mum
Well-known member
I am so pleased for you I am going on holiday soon so maybe by the time Icome back you will have your new baby and photos----Aileen and the gang (Jazzie---Barney---Sam)
Please reread this thread again and review what people said and the links that were offered about finding a GOOD breeder who DOES breed for health. Your new one does not and indeed is going to charge you twice as much for a dog of the same poor quality.
I know you won't want to hear this but it simply has got to be said so at least you don;t think you are getting a better arrangement with this second breeder: the new breeder is NOT going to be any better than the old breeder. A dog that isn't even AKC registered is going to be from totally un-health-tested lines of totally unknown background. Such dogs are purely from other backyard breeders or puppy mills -- that is WHY they have no ability to be registered. So she simply cannot be telling you she cares about health -- or she would not be breeding such a dog.
I simply cannot believe she can have a champion sire for this litter, either -- no owner of an AKC champion dog would breed it to a dog of no registration; it is simply impossible for this to happen unless something very underhand was going on! No reputable breeder would allow for her champion to be misused in this way. Because she cannot register the puppies from this union with any accepted, reputable registry (AKC or CKCSC) you have absolutely no way of proving the father is who it is. Here is why: I could tomorrow, create pedigrees for all my dogs with the trash registries, stating that my dogs have a famous sire and dam, and the regsitries would issue those registrations to all my dogs, no checks or proof required, as soon as I paid my money to them (THAT is why they are meaningless, trash registries). By contrast, the AKC and CKCSC require PROOF. That is why reputable breeders ONLY use reputable, established registries, so that their dogs are verifiably who they say they are, and so that the parentage of their dogs will be recognised by worldwide reputable registries and clubs if they show abroad or their dog is used as a stud abroad, or pups are homed abroad, for example.
No reputable breeder offers a five year heart guarantee as it is MEANINGLESS -- this is another red flag ploy of a trash breeder to dupe unsuspecting puppy buyers into thinking this signifies they must breed for health if they are offering such a long term guarantee. Yet you won't find a single reputable breedr offering such a meaningless guarantee, and for good reason. What is her 'guarantee'? Will she pay all costs for treatment of the dog? Or is she just saying she will 'replace' the dog -- which they know full well no pet owner will choose as an option, therefore they never pay out? They also know few pet owners will ever cardiac test their dogs and most vets cannot pick up the early murmurs cavaliers typically develop -- in 50% of dogs -- by age 5. The chances are too that she will be long gone and uncontactable by the time your dog reaches age 5 and develops murmurs. And initial murmurs are very cheap to treat anyway -- the meds are amongst the cheapest on the market (say $5 a month) -- it is when the dog gets older than 5 that costs start to rise or the dog dies. So a 5 year heart guarantee means nothing.
The bigger question is: why is she charging TWICE what the other breeder did when she is producing dogs of exactly the same poor quality, incapable of registration, with one parent at least that will be from the most indifferent lines of totally unknown health history (that is why pedigrees are important -- breeders know the *histories* of their dogs going back generations and (*that* is what matters when breeding, not simply testing the parents).
Has she cardiac and cardiologist tested (not heart testing by just a vet) both parents, and the grandparents (all four). Are the grandparents all heart murmur free at age 5 and can she show you the certs? Are both parents at least 2.5 and heart clear (all cleared by a cardiologist)? If not, you are just going right back into the same situation with dogs of trash quality with more serious health risks.
With dogs, you will get what you pay for. You pay for breeder expertise, care, and long time commitment to their lines and to using only heart clear dogs.
Please use a CKCSC or ACKCSC registered breeder who heart tests using a cardiologist.
You'd be better off going for a rescue dog if you are wiling to live with the uncertainty of health background and potential high costs of treatment and early death, rather than support exploitative, trash breeders in their poor breeding practices.
Please understand that you are only going from the frying pan into the fire and paying twice as much in order to do it. The worst breeders on this planet who most exploit these dogs are expert at sounding like the sweetest, most caring people. Do NOT be taken in by what people say. Scrutinise instead what they DO. Actions are far more important than words.
I know you won't want to hear this but it simply has got to be said so at least you don;t think you are getting a better arrangement with this second breeder: the new breeder is NOT going to be any better than the old breeder. A dog that isn't even AKC registered is going to be from totally un-health-tested lines of totally unknown background. Such dogs are purely from other backyard breeders or puppy mills -- that is WHY they have no ability to be registered. So she simply cannot be telling you she cares about health -- or she would not be breeding such a dog.
I simply cannot believe she can have a champion sire for this litter, either -- no owner of an AKC champion dog would breed it to a dog of no registration; it is simply impossible for this to happen unless something very underhand was going on! No reputable breeder would allow for her champion to be misused in this way. Because she cannot register the puppies from this union with any accepted, reputable registry (AKC or CKCSC) you have absolutely no way of proving the father is who it is. Here is why: I could tomorrow, create pedigrees for all my dogs with the trash registries, stating that my dogs have a famous sire and dam, and the regsitries would issue those registrations to all my dogs, no checks or proof required, as soon as I paid my money to them (THAT is why they are meaningless, trash registries). By contrast, the AKC and CKCSC require PROOF. That is why reputable breeders ONLY use reputable, established registries, so that their dogs are verifiably who they say they are, and so that the parentage of their dogs will be recognised by worldwide reputable registries and clubs if they show abroad or their dog is used as a stud abroad, or pups are homed abroad, for example.
No reputable breeder offers a five year heart guarantee as it is MEANINGLESS -- this is another red flag ploy of a trash breeder to dupe unsuspecting puppy buyers into thinking this signifies they must breed for health if they are offering such a long term guarantee. Yet you won't find a single reputable breedr offering such a meaningless guarantee, and for good reason. What is her 'guarantee'? Will she pay all costs for treatment of the dog? Or is she just saying she will 'replace' the dog -- which they know full well no pet owner will choose as an option, therefore they never pay out? They also know few pet owners will ever cardiac test their dogs and most vets cannot pick up the early murmurs cavaliers typically develop -- in 50% of dogs -- by age 5. The chances are too that she will be long gone and uncontactable by the time your dog reaches age 5 and develops murmurs. And initial murmurs are very cheap to treat anyway -- the meds are amongst the cheapest on the market (say $5 a month) -- it is when the dog gets older than 5 that costs start to rise or the dog dies. So a 5 year heart guarantee means nothing.
The bigger question is: why is she charging TWICE what the other breeder did when she is producing dogs of exactly the same poor quality, incapable of registration, with one parent at least that will be from the most indifferent lines of totally unknown health history (that is why pedigrees are important -- breeders know the *histories* of their dogs going back generations and (*that* is what matters when breeding, not simply testing the parents).
Has she cardiac and cardiologist tested (not heart testing by just a vet) both parents, and the grandparents (all four). Are the grandparents all heart murmur free at age 5 and can she show you the certs? Are both parents at least 2.5 and heart clear (all cleared by a cardiologist)? If not, you are just going right back into the same situation with dogs of trash quality with more serious health risks.
With dogs, you will get what you pay for. You pay for breeder expertise, care, and long time commitment to their lines and to using only heart clear dogs.
Please use a CKCSC or ACKCSC registered breeder who heart tests using a cardiologist.
You'd be better off going for a rescue dog if you are wiling to live with the uncertainty of health background and potential high costs of treatment and early death, rather than support exploitative, trash breeders in their poor breeding practices.
Please understand that you are only going from the frying pan into the fire and paying twice as much in order to do it. The worst breeders on this planet who most exploit these dogs are expert at sounding like the sweetest, most caring people. Do NOT be taken in by what people say. Scrutinise instead what they DO. Actions are far more important than words.
I think it is time for this particular thread to be closed.
I understand there have been several private contacts made from many caring people on the board, with excellent suggestions of reputable breeders who possibly have puppies, and offers of help with those good contacts.
There is also extensive, wise advice as well as some sad cautionary tales within the thread now.
Brika, you can follow the advice you asked for and actually *listen* to the many voices of experience here who have tried to be helpful, or you can remain firm in your convictions that it is better to ignore the advice of people with actual experience and knowledge and find that cheap puppy right away. People here are not going to confirm your poor choices. But I also do not want this thread to cycle through all the same advice again and for those with that good advice to encounter the frustration of having no one listen to what is being said.
The puppy mill and backyard breeder industry thrives off people willing to trade cheap, instant gratification for wise investment and respect for preserving the breed.
Every purchase from these bottom feeder breeders further debilitates the breed as a whole as they are financed in their poor breeding practice, causing the worst health problems to become more widely dispersed. They are the main reason the breed is struggling against a tide of widely spread, poor genes.
To my mind there are many things children could be taught about choosing wisely, learning patience, and caring for animals by waiting for the right puppy from the right, reputable breeder. Whether kids would be disappointed in not getting an instant puppy should not be a worry. Making a good choice of breeder and puppy -- a lifetime commitment and a lifetime expense -- is a great example to set for them.
Thread closed. It is sad that we just seem to have returned to where it all started with nothing learned.
I understand there have been several private contacts made from many caring people on the board, with excellent suggestions of reputable breeders who possibly have puppies, and offers of help with those good contacts.
There is also extensive, wise advice as well as some sad cautionary tales within the thread now.
Brika, you can follow the advice you asked for and actually *listen* to the many voices of experience here who have tried to be helpful, or you can remain firm in your convictions that it is better to ignore the advice of people with actual experience and knowledge and find that cheap puppy right away. People here are not going to confirm your poor choices. But I also do not want this thread to cycle through all the same advice again and for those with that good advice to encounter the frustration of having no one listen to what is being said.
The puppy mill and backyard breeder industry thrives off people willing to trade cheap, instant gratification for wise investment and respect for preserving the breed.
Every purchase from these bottom feeder breeders further debilitates the breed as a whole as they are financed in their poor breeding practice, causing the worst health problems to become more widely dispersed. They are the main reason the breed is struggling against a tide of widely spread, poor genes.
To my mind there are many things children could be taught about choosing wisely, learning patience, and caring for animals by waiting for the right puppy from the right, reputable breeder. Whether kids would be disappointed in not getting an instant puppy should not be a worry. Making a good choice of breeder and puppy -- a lifetime commitment and a lifetime expense -- is a great example to set for them.
Thread closed. It is sad that we just seem to have returned to where it all started with nothing learned.
Thank you.
Since my thread is closed because "I haven't learned anything"... I thought I'd take the opportunity to post a new thread. If it's deleted... I'll know I'm unwelcome and that the care for puppies that people are buying runs only so deep.
I want to send my sincere thank you to those who helped on this board with our search for a puppy. Which by the way IS NOT DONE YET. My last post on my original thread said we were CHECKING another puppy out. Many of you PMed me and were very thoughtful, caring, and helpful. Others, rude, quick to judge, and full of superiority. Thank you to all of you.
Perhaps Karlin feels I have not learned anything. I do not agree. I feel that I've done more research, "LISTENING", and struggling with my choices than 99% of puppy buyers. I'm sorry that Karlin is so quick to judge me, my choices, and my IQ. I take great offense to my thread being closed. One that I felt was giving me more ideas, more lead, more help. PM's have been recieved and that is where I am forced to go for more help.
Karlin,
I've reread this thread and the tutorials about puppy purchasing many times. I think maybe what you are not understanding is that I don't have the strong urge for show quality bred dogs which seems to be the only kind you'll endorse. In fact, I feel very uncomfortable with some of the "quality" breeders I've called... they've made me feel unworthy, and have been downright snobbish. I've even been told that we shouldn't have a Cavalier because we have kids. I have no more desire to work with these breeders than than the orignal one I had. I'd much rather work with someone who is middle of the road. One with good vet history, good advice, and one who I get along with.
Our family has bred chocolate labs ... and yes, I'm sure we are what you'd call backyard breeders. We did many tests... worked closely with our vet, and considered ourselves very caring and careful. So, we more closely identify with a simple transaction, a loving family, clean conditions, open discussion with vet's about the puppy's health, the parents health, and YES THE GRANDPARENTS health. AKC registration is nice... but it's simply papers (at least to me) .... and every bit of paperwork I've ever had the experience with means room for errors, usually many.
Can I ask this. Why if I have the opportunity to talk with the breeder on several occasions, see their home, see where the dogs were raised, see their pedegree, see the parents, talk to the vet about the health of the parents (and I'll ask about the grandparents) see the proof of heart clearance, AND I FEEL GOOD about what I've seen... should I not go through with the transaction?
Because of Papers??????? Because it's not a breeder directly recommended from this board? If there were papers AKC... and I knew about the grandparents then... would it be okay?
After reading all the suggestions (and many PMs) I DO think I've learned. About the breed, about breeders, about myselft and what I'm really looking for, and I hope I've found a place where I can come and show off our sweetie, ask questions, cry if needed... and fit in with other dog lovers.
But, if this is a place where posts are closed because there is a lack of conforming... it's not a place for me.
I wish you all the best day with your dogs. We hope to join you soon with a healthy dog of our own.
Since my thread is closed because "I haven't learned anything"... I thought I'd take the opportunity to post a new thread. If it's deleted... I'll know I'm unwelcome and that the care for puppies that people are buying runs only so deep.
I want to send my sincere thank you to those who helped on this board with our search for a puppy. Which by the way IS NOT DONE YET. My last post on my original thread said we were CHECKING another puppy out. Many of you PMed me and were very thoughtful, caring, and helpful. Others, rude, quick to judge, and full of superiority. Thank you to all of you.
Perhaps Karlin feels I have not learned anything. I do not agree. I feel that I've done more research, "LISTENING", and struggling with my choices than 99% of puppy buyers. I'm sorry that Karlin is so quick to judge me, my choices, and my IQ. I take great offense to my thread being closed. One that I felt was giving me more ideas, more lead, more help. PM's have been recieved and that is where I am forced to go for more help.
Karlin,
I've reread this thread and the tutorials about puppy purchasing many times. I think maybe what you are not understanding is that I don't have the strong urge for show quality bred dogs which seems to be the only kind you'll endorse. In fact, I feel very uncomfortable with some of the "quality" breeders I've called... they've made me feel unworthy, and have been downright snobbish. I've even been told that we shouldn't have a Cavalier because we have kids. I have no more desire to work with these breeders than than the orignal one I had. I'd much rather work with someone who is middle of the road. One with good vet history, good advice, and one who I get along with.
Our family has bred chocolate labs ... and yes, I'm sure we are what you'd call backyard breeders. We did many tests... worked closely with our vet, and considered ourselves very caring and careful. So, we more closely identify with a simple transaction, a loving family, clean conditions, open discussion with vet's about the puppy's health, the parents health, and YES THE GRANDPARENTS health. AKC registration is nice... but it's simply papers (at least to me) .... and every bit of paperwork I've ever had the experience with means room for errors, usually many.
Can I ask this. Why if I have the opportunity to talk with the breeder on several occasions, see their home, see where the dogs were raised, see their pedegree, see the parents, talk to the vet about the health of the parents (and I'll ask about the grandparents) see the proof of heart clearance, AND I FEEL GOOD about what I've seen... should I not go through with the transaction?
Because of Papers??????? Because it's not a breeder directly recommended from this board? If there were papers AKC... and I knew about the grandparents then... would it be okay?
After reading all the suggestions (and many PMs) I DO think I've learned. About the breed, about breeders, about myselft and what I'm really looking for, and I hope I've found a place where I can come and show off our sweetie, ask questions, cry if needed... and fit in with other dog lovers.
But, if this is a place where posts are closed because there is a lack of conforming... it's not a place for me.
I wish you all the best day with your dogs. We hope to join you soon with a healthy dog of our own.
Brika: you are still NOT LISTENING. I am responding to what YOU yourself have said.
No one is saying you need to buy show dogs and if that is the message you have taken away, and you confuse properly bred dogs with show dogs only, then you truly are not paying attention to anything anyone has said.
People are saying you need to go to a breeder who breeds HEALTHY dogs. HEALTHY dogs are never, EVER bred by the kinds of people you keep wanting to patronise and whose typical stories you are still swallowing because they are offering you puppies that cost less than reputable breeders' puppies. Many of us have heard those stories, and I get many private mails from devastated owners of dogs they bought from just this type of breeder -- the breeders that seem nice and say all the things you want to hear (of course they do -- they are tryng to make a sale, just like the first one). But only show breeders or breeders involved actively in the dog world -- with the official clubs -- produce dogs with the knowledge that helps ensure you have the best chance of a HEALTHY dog. Only they have the trust in the quality of their dogs to place them before their colleagues where they can be actively seen and assessed and lines scrutinised. I am sorry if you spoke with some rude people. But maybe they felt all you were interested in was the cheapest possible puppy, as this is a point that emerges over and over in your posts, which could in their eyes have marked you as a not very desireable home. Believe me, there are plenty of BYBs and millers who are a LOT more unpleasant than any show breeder could ever be.
Let me say this again: People who do not use registered dogs will NOT be breeding for health. They are breeding to make money by convincing people that the show breeder world is difficult and snobby and they, by contrast, have only your best interest at heart because they so badly want you to have a cavalier.
Yeah, right. They badly want YOUR MONEY and they want to make as much off of you as possible by cutting corners as breeders. They do NOT health test properly. They use the trash registries because their dogs are of such unknown quality that they cannot even get a basic AKC registration -- which isn't difficult to get, there are plenty of BYB and puppy mill dogs that have AKC reg. But it or CKCSC in the US is the most basic MINIMUM you need to see before you even consider buying a puppy.
Proper breed testing, proper vet care and producing carefully bred dogs is not cheap. That is why any time you see cut rate puppies, you know you are getting a puppy from someone who is cutting corners. Any show breeder will confirm they do not make money by breeding -- often, they lose it. BYBs stay in business because they spend NOTHING on their dogs, use the trash registries, and get gullible people to believe they, the trash breeder, are doing the buyer a big favour.
They are fleecing the buyer and wrecking the breed because their poor breeding decisions will be reflected in further puppies -- bred by more BYBs who register their dogs with the trash registries because they cannot get 'papers' anywhere else. It is even worse when such ignorant people think they truly are doing things the right way and are somehow benefitting anyone, much less the breed they choose to slowly ruin through thoughtless breeding decisions.
Your post however speaks for itself and I will leave it here for people to see just why it has been so damn difficult for you to understand why health and quality and supporting good breeding practice actually matters, and why you have wasted so much of our time in arguing on behalf on what was so obviously one junk breeder, and a second one with cut rate dogs is also now more appealing than the club breeders contacts so many kindly offered you.
Clearly these things didn't matter when you were breeding and selling puppies, and therefore isn't going to matter much to you when buying one of another breed. All we can hope for is that you don't decide you have a 'contribution' to make by breeding whatever puppy you do end up with.
No one is saying you need to buy show dogs and if that is the message you have taken away, and you confuse properly bred dogs with show dogs only, then you truly are not paying attention to anything anyone has said.
People are saying you need to go to a breeder who breeds HEALTHY dogs. HEALTHY dogs are never, EVER bred by the kinds of people you keep wanting to patronise and whose typical stories you are still swallowing because they are offering you puppies that cost less than reputable breeders' puppies. Many of us have heard those stories, and I get many private mails from devastated owners of dogs they bought from just this type of breeder -- the breeders that seem nice and say all the things you want to hear (of course they do -- they are tryng to make a sale, just like the first one). But only show breeders or breeders involved actively in the dog world -- with the official clubs -- produce dogs with the knowledge that helps ensure you have the best chance of a HEALTHY dog. Only they have the trust in the quality of their dogs to place them before their colleagues where they can be actively seen and assessed and lines scrutinised. I am sorry if you spoke with some rude people. But maybe they felt all you were interested in was the cheapest possible puppy, as this is a point that emerges over and over in your posts, which could in their eyes have marked you as a not very desireable home. Believe me, there are plenty of BYBs and millers who are a LOT more unpleasant than any show breeder could ever be.
Let me say this again: People who do not use registered dogs will NOT be breeding for health. They are breeding to make money by convincing people that the show breeder world is difficult and snobby and they, by contrast, have only your best interest at heart because they so badly want you to have a cavalier.
Yeah, right. They badly want YOUR MONEY and they want to make as much off of you as possible by cutting corners as breeders. They do NOT health test properly. They use the trash registries because their dogs are of such unknown quality that they cannot even get a basic AKC registration -- which isn't difficult to get, there are plenty of BYB and puppy mill dogs that have AKC reg. But it or CKCSC in the US is the most basic MINIMUM you need to see before you even consider buying a puppy.
Proper breed testing, proper vet care and producing carefully bred dogs is not cheap. That is why any time you see cut rate puppies, you know you are getting a puppy from someone who is cutting corners. Any show breeder will confirm they do not make money by breeding -- often, they lose it. BYBs stay in business because they spend NOTHING on their dogs, use the trash registries, and get gullible people to believe they, the trash breeder, are doing the buyer a big favour.
They are fleecing the buyer and wrecking the breed because their poor breeding decisions will be reflected in further puppies -- bred by more BYBs who register their dogs with the trash registries because they cannot get 'papers' anywhere else. It is even worse when such ignorant people think they truly are doing things the right way and are somehow benefitting anyone, much less the breed they choose to slowly ruin through thoughtless breeding decisions.
Your post however speaks for itself and I will leave it here for people to see just why it has been so damn difficult for you to understand why health and quality and supporting good breeding practice actually matters, and why you have wasted so much of our time in arguing on behalf on what was so obviously one junk breeder, and a second one with cut rate dogs is also now more appealing than the club breeders contacts so many kindly offered you.
Clearly these things didn't matter when you were breeding and selling puppies, and therefore isn't going to matter much to you when buying one of another breed. All we can hope for is that you don't decide you have a 'contribution' to make by breeding whatever puppy you do end up with.
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