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talking to Cavalier owners
- Thread starter jacies
- Start date
Bet the testing that are happing are great but I think the focus should be on finding the genes for CM/SM. Sarah Blott's EBV Program that is being setup would greatly benefit from Genetic Research as the stored Cheek Swabs could then be tested which will give the breed the ULTIMATE as Sarah put it and where she mentioned then her program could utilise "Genomic Breeding Values (geBVs)".
Then I see the following that is still on the club's website where I think the Genetic Researchers may still not have all that they really need, and the following from this link.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/syringo/sm_over_5.html
GENETIC STUDIES OF CHIARI-LIKE MALFORMATION WITH SYRINGOMYELIA (CM/SM) IN THE CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIEL
REQUEST FOR DNA SAMPLES FROM DOGS AGED OVER 5
August 09
Information about the progress of the genetic research can be found at http://veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/research.htm
The researchers are seeking DNA samples from cavaliers who are over 5 years of age, but preferably over 7, who have been MRI’d and do not have SM. They are also seeking samples from any close relatives that have also been MRI’d, for example siblings, half siblings and offspring. These dogs can be any age.
‘ORAGENE ANIMAL’ SALIVA KITS
‘Oragene Animal’ mouth mop kits are the swab to be used and provide a quick and easy method of collecting a saliva sample suitable for DNA extraction.
These are available from Dr Rusbridge, Stone Lion Veterinary Centre, 41 High Street, Wimbledon Common, London SW19 5AU Telepehone 020 8946 4228 or email [email protected]
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By the way Bet, Geneticist Dr Guy Rouleau (Director of CHU Sainte Justine Research Centre, Montreal) mentioned last year in the video presentation at the Conference that CM/SM involves more than one gene, for if it involved one gene then they or other research centres would have found the gene by now. So maybe we should start thinking about "certain Genes being involved".
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Talking to Cavalier Owners.
Eddy,
I sure am getting lost now, what do you mean by Certain Genes could now be being involved.
I know that looking for the MVD Gene/Genes by LUPA, can be understood by us lay Folk, but will the SM Genes be being found by MRI Scanning, or is the best way forward for the SM problem in Cavaliers, to be able to have the Problem not happening at such an early Age.
When early Cavalier Pedigrees are looked at ,what a mess they are, Mother to Son Matings, Father to Daughter Matings, then all those close Matings all mixed again by the original close Breedings.
Eddy,
I sure am getting lost now, what do you mean by Certain Genes could now be being involved.
I know that looking for the MVD Gene/Genes by LUPA, can be understood by us lay Folk, but will the SM Genes be being found by MRI Scanning, or is the best way forward for the SM problem in Cavaliers, to be able to have the Problem not happening at such an early Age.
When early Cavalier Pedigrees are looked at ,what a mess they are, Mother to Son Matings, Father to Daughter Matings, then all those close Matings all mixed again by the original close Breedings.
Margaret C
Well-known member
Karlin posted a thread about places being available for reduced Rate MRI scans at Stone Lion Veterinary Centre.
I know the owner of one of the dogs that is being MRI scanned for the SM DNA Research on that day. Mabel was scanned at four and graded A and my friend has agreed to have her checked again now she is nine,to help the Genome research.
My friend does not show, she breeds once every two or three years because she so enjoys having a litter of puppies around the house.
It would be good if other owners would think about taking advantage of the reduced price and book one of their older dogs for scanning. It could so help the research
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I wanted to add to this that there have been indicator genes found over the last couple of years for some awful canine illnesses.
As examples:
An indicator gene was found for Boxer Cardiomyopathy, a condition long thought by some to have a dominant mode of inheritance. This is a later onset condition and indeed the inheritance mode is recessive, however, in an uncommon manner Boxers with one copy of this recessive gene will still be affected to some extent . . . and as well breeders have been asked not to cull dogs with a single copy of this gene as the impact on the gene pool could be disastrous. There is a good chance that other genes are involved in Cardiomyopathy as well.
http://www.dunnfordboxers.com/arvcinformation.htm
There is also a genetic test now for canine degenerative myelopathy (in German Shepherd Dogs, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Pembroke and Cardigan Welsh Corgis, Boxers, and Chesapeake Bay Retrievers) a late onset and horrible condition . . . again a recessive gene but there are complications as the penetrance is incomplete (a large number of dogs that test genetically affected show no clinical symptoms). There are obviously other risk factors that contribute. There are possibly other gene combinations alongside that are harmless on their own, but cause difficulties in combination with this one, or possibly environmental factors . . .
On the human side, this is exciting for those suffering from Lou Gehrig's Disease (ALS), as the mutation that causes canine DM is the same as that which causes human ALS.
IF CM/SM is polygenic it will be more difficult to find, but that gives all the more reason for breeders to contribute as much information as they can . . . and it CAN come to a great end and help with human sufferers as well.
Karen and Ruby
Well-known member
Dont we all just want a healthy Cav????!!!!!!
I have held off saying anything on this thread as
a) I dont have any breeding experience
b)I have been 'told off' for comments made in the past
But I will say something as
a) I have 1 dog with advanced SM
b)I have a new rescue 10 month old with Mitral Valve dispasia and in my opinion shows all the signs of having SM
2 out of 2 dogs with both of the main causes off concern in the breed
I had a look over on CC today and was shocked and appauled at the comments some were making and I can say here and now that I will NEVER purchase a pup again.
This is sad to say as I have a lot of love and energy for this breed but I wouldnt want to fund some of the breeding practices that are taking place around the UK!
DONT WE ALL JUST WANT A HEALTHY BREED......REALLY!!!!!!
I am sick and tired of reading the back and forth bashing between some and cant we all just come together and so what is best for the breed.
If right now all we have to go on is breeding protocol then so be it- if in a few years time we have a better protocol then so be that.
It is extremely disheartening as a pet owner to see that breeders cant agree on what is best. If breeders cant agree with experts and so on then truely WHAT HOPE DO CAVS HAVE... in answer NONE!!!
From a very saddened pet owner
Karen
I have held off saying anything on this thread as
a) I dont have any breeding experience
b)I have been 'told off' for comments made in the past
But I will say something as
a) I have 1 dog with advanced SM
b)I have a new rescue 10 month old with Mitral Valve dispasia and in my opinion shows all the signs of having SM
2 out of 2 dogs with both of the main causes off concern in the breed
I had a look over on CC today and was shocked and appauled at the comments some were making and I can say here and now that I will NEVER purchase a pup again.
This is sad to say as I have a lot of love and energy for this breed but I wouldnt want to fund some of the breeding practices that are taking place around the UK!
DONT WE ALL JUST WANT A HEALTHY BREED......REALLY!!!!!!
I am sick and tired of reading the back and forth bashing between some and cant we all just come together and so what is best for the breed.
If right now all we have to go on is breeding protocol then so be it- if in a few years time we have a better protocol then so be that.
It is extremely disheartening as a pet owner to see that breeders cant agree on what is best. If breeders cant agree with experts and so on then truely WHAT HOPE DO CAVS HAVE... in answer NONE!!!
From a very saddened pet owner
Karen
Bet yes Professor Geneticist Dr Guy Rouleau did mention what I mentioned. Do you want a link to the Conference Presentation Video and it's still on the internet.
Bet it appears the Genetic Researchers particularly want "over 5 years of age, but preferably over 7, who have been MRI’d and do NOT have SM" and in a familial group, and to have a number of them so that they can compare their genes with the genes of a number of those "who have been MRI’d and DO have SM". A DNA comparison in genes from those in one group to the other group could be of help in finding all the genes involved. Comparative research like this tends to be commonly used where the clear group tends to be mentioned as the "control group".
Think of the Type 1 Diabetes Research that you were involved with where they used one group of Cavaliers that DID HAVE Diabetes and another group of Cavalier that DID NOT HAVE Diabetes, plus other breeds who were also similarly involved. Also keep in mind that the Genetic Research for CM/SM is also involving another dog breed to help find the GENES for CM/SM.
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Talking to Cavalier Breeders.
I have been a Saddened Cavalier Pet Owner for around 20 years.
What is happening to-day with the Cavalier SM Problem is no different than what happened all those years ago with the Cavaliers' Heart problem.
I would have thought that the Cavalier Breeders who are dragging their feet about the SM Problem would have learnt their lesson by this time about the Mess some or most Cavalier Breeders have caused the Breed by burying their Head in the Sand about the Breed's MVD Problem.
To read the Bland Cavalier Notes of N Inglis ,you would think all is well with the Cavalier Breed.
Many of us Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owners know differently.
I have been a Saddened Cavalier Pet Owner for around 20 years.
What is happening to-day with the Cavalier SM Problem is no different than what happened all those years ago with the Cavaliers' Heart problem.
I would have thought that the Cavalier Breeders who are dragging their feet about the SM Problem would have learnt their lesson by this time about the Mess some or most Cavalier Breeders have caused the Breed by burying their Head in the Sand about the Breed's MVD Problem.
To read the Bland Cavalier Notes of N Inglis ,you would think all is well with the Cavalier Breed.
Many of us Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owners know differently.
I heard about Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Cardiomyopathy in Boxers, and now there is a DNA test available, see here where anyone can test their boxer.
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/deptsVCGL/Boxer/test.aspx
I think that this helps to provide "DNA fine mapping details of the HEART" and I'm thinking in relation to ALL DOGS HEARTS.
Oreo there certainly are a number of things happening lately regarding DNA, but it did require dog breeds to do their part.
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Oreo many thanks for that. When I have some more free time I'll have to look closely into that. Regarding some Hereditary Diseases and DNA Research I think that dogs can help humans, and humans can help dogs. The LUPA Project certainly thinks so and I think that so do many other DNA Research Centres around the world.
Some time ago I thought of things, even things like this where Cavaliers may suggest an excellent comparative and spontaneously occurring disease model of human Type 1 Diabetes, and the following from this address. Abstract as below and document in PDF format from this address.
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/98/5/518.pdf
Abstract
Canine diabetes is a complex genetic disease of unknown aetiology. It affects 0.005–1.5% of the canine population and shows a clear breed predisposition with the Samoyed being at high risk and the Boxer being at low risk of developing the disease. Canine diabetes is considered to be a disease homologue for human type 1 diabetes (T1D). It results in insulin deficiency as a consequence of autoimmune destruction of islet b-cells in the pancreas and is believed to be mediated by Th1 cytokines (IFNc, TNFa, and IL-2). A number of genes have been associated with type 1 diabetes in humans, including the human leukocyte antigen region, the insulin variable number tandem repeat, PTPN22, CTLA4, IL-4, and IL-13. As yet, these genes have not been evaluated in canine diabetes. In this study, 483 cases of canine diabetes and 869 controls of known breed were analyzed for association with IFNc, IGF2, IL-10, IL-12b, IL-6, insulin, PTPN22, RANTES, IL-4, IL-1a and TNFa. Minor allele frequencies were determined for these genes in each breed. These data were used for comparative analyses in a case control study, and clear associations with diabetes were identified in some breeds with certain alleles of candidate genes. Some associations were with increased susceptibility to the disease (IFNc, IL-10, IL-12b, IL-6, insulin, PTPN22, IL-4, and TNFa), whereas others were protective (IL-4, PTPN22, IL-6, insulin, IGF2, TNFa). This study demonstrates that a number of the candidate genes previously associated with human T1D also appear to be associated with canine diabetes and identifies an IL-10 haplotype which is associated with diabetes in the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. This suggests that canine diabetes is an excellent comparative and spontaneously occurring disease model of human T1D.
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jacies
Well-known member
I am sick and tired of reading the back and forth bashing between some and cant we all just come together and so what is best for the breed.
If right now all we have to go on is breeding protocol then so be it- if in a few years time we have a better protocol then so be that.
It is extremely disheartening as a pet owner to see that breeders cant agree on what is best. If breeders cant agree with experts and so on then truely WHAT HOPE DO CAVS HAVE... in answer NONE!!!
From a very saddened pet owner
Karen[/QUOTE]
I quite agree with you Karen, I am amazed that my original question has resulted in such a long thread. Although I have found it interesting and quite baffling as well as don't understand half of it and just know what I have to go through with my poor Chaos on a day to day basis.
I am also wondering if the latest trend of mating cavaliers to other breeds such as pugs and poodles could result in this horrible disease spreading to these other breeds if two such crosses were mated together and then back to pugs or poodles if they looked like them. Maybe someone could enlighten me on this.
If right now all we have to go on is breeding protocol then so be it- if in a few years time we have a better protocol then so be that.
It is extremely disheartening as a pet owner to see that breeders cant agree on what is best. If breeders cant agree with experts and so on then truely WHAT HOPE DO CAVS HAVE... in answer NONE!!!
From a very saddened pet owner
Karen[/QUOTE]
I quite agree with you Karen, I am amazed that my original question has resulted in such a long thread. Although I have found it interesting and quite baffling as well as don't understand half of it and just know what I have to go through with my poor Chaos on a day to day basis.
I am also wondering if the latest trend of mating cavaliers to other breeds such as pugs and poodles could result in this horrible disease spreading to these other breeds if two such crosses were mated together and then back to pugs or poodles if they looked like them. Maybe someone could enlighten me on this.
Clairelou
Well-known member
[/QUOTE] I am also wondering if the latest trend of mating cavaliers to other breeds such as pugs and poodles could result in this horrible disease spreading to these other breeds if two such crosses were mated together and then back to pugs or poodles if they looked like them. Maybe someone could enlighten me on this.[/QUOTE]
The dalmation breed has had great health benefits by being crossed with pointers.
The dalmation breed has had great health benefits by being crossed with pointers.
In Australia a Cavalier x Shih Tzu has been diagnosed with SM. From a thread I read she has contributed a DNA sample for research. Of course we don't know if this was a first generation cross, or the product of two Cavalier x Shih Tzus bred together (maybe even closely related ones), as I understand puppymills would not hesitate to breed brother and sister crossbreeds together as a cheap way to establish larger numbers of breeding stock.
These threads are about Chanel, the Cavalier x Shih Tzu mix with SM.
http://www.dolforums.com.au/lofiversion/index.php/t113167.html
http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=114708&pid=2070522&mode=threaded&start=
These threads are about Chanel, the Cavalier x Shih Tzu mix with SM.
http://www.dolforums.com.au/lofiversion/index.php/t113167.html
http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=114708&pid=2070522&mode=threaded&start=
It is totally within the realm of possibilities for SM to strike a crossbreed, when SM is known to occur in both parent breeds . . . as it is with MVD, patella luxation, hip dysplasia etc.
The prevalence rate should not be left out of the picture though. Right now not enough about SM in other breeds is known. I understand the Brussels Griffon, although not having as high a prevalence of rate of CM as Cavaliers do, does have a fairly high rate of SM. It is the only other breed that has had many MRIs.
Now that would be a wonderful first cross for those with no knowledge of researched breeding to start on.
But as much as I can be sarcastic, there are lessons to be learned from the Dalmation backcross and a guided and well researched crossbreeding program, when indeed a breed has no individuals left to get good genes from (as happened with the dals). Let's hope CM/SM does not get that far into the breed.
The prevalence rate should not be left out of the picture though. Right now not enough about SM in other breeds is known. I understand the Brussels Griffon, although not having as high a prevalence of rate of CM as Cavaliers do, does have a fairly high rate of SM. It is the only other breed that has had many MRIs.
Now that would be a wonderful first cross for those with no knowledge of researched breeding to start on.
But as much as I can be sarcastic, there are lessons to be learned from the Dalmation backcross and a guided and well researched crossbreeding program, when indeed a breed has no individuals left to get good genes from (as happened with the dals). Let's hope CM/SM does not get that far into the breed.
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