talking to Cavalier owners

[Pat]

I know that some of the popular stud dogs actually have been scanned but the results of these scans are only released if they are good.

Some of these dogs disappear to the USA

Although I've had Cavaliers for 20+ years, I'm quite out of the loop at this point as far as club/show/breeding activities, etc.

And yet even I have been privy to some of the confidential phone calls where folks discuss these particular Cavaliers that have been sent to the US to continue breeding.

The sad thing is that the general novice pet buyer has no clue about all of this and these puppy buyers are SO excited to purchase a puppy (at a premium price) from some of the hugely successful show breeders using these imports.

Pat

 

[Margaret C]

I really cannot believe what I have just read on the nasties forum..........

"OK Mark, a direct question. You have a choice as a breeder to take your A scanned bitch to one of two dogs, an unscanned dog without symptoms aged seven years with clear heart or a D scanned dog aged 7 that has a significant syrinx, no symptoms and a heart murmur. Which would you choose?"

Why would any responsible UK breeder choose either when there are other well bred, Grade A stud dogs to choose from?

Only a show breeder whose priority is beauty first & foremost could still believe that a unscanned dog of any age is a good choice.

 

[HollyDolly]

Spotted this post on CC. The writer is referring to us.:_

"As the remark on the other board clearly showed-- they don't get that an MRI is a picture in time, that it doesn't show what the dogs genotype is.
It is funny how they go on and on about how a "dog looks" are too important to show breeders when they put ALL their beliefs in a 'picture' of a dogs cranium and spine."


I feel I have to make comment Sandy, you insist on popping over to the other side and make derogatory comments about us on here, can you answer me this WHY DO YOU STAY ON THIS FORUM WHEN WE SO OBVIOUSLY MAKE YOU MAD:sl*p:


Nanette

 

[WoodHaven]

Because every once in a while someone over here will say, "hey, I think I understand what you mean". Isn't EDUCATION and the use of free expression what will get us to understand where the other side is coming from.

US-- First of all, I don't remember you saying anything. AND trust me, there are people on THIS site that don't really believe that breeders are evil. There are people on THIS site that can think for themselves.

I am not "FOR ANY SIDE"-- I am very much in the middle. Do I health test-- YES. Actually if I were to say I am on any side-- It would be the 'cavalier dogs' side.

When one side attacks the other, it is painful to read. Do I know that people here read what is written on the other board-- duh, yes. If I wanted to 'hide' I would use a different name than my kennel name. I stand by everything I printed.

To have someone say that breeders are breeding for looks, when some people here are advocating breeding for MRI results -LOOKS -- phenotype choices-- not genotype choices-- and they don't get the similarity, it is frustrating.

 

[Cathy T]

I am not "FOR ANY SIDE"-- I am very much in the middle. Do I health test-- YES. Actually if I were to say I am on any side-- It would be the 'cavalier dogs' side.

And that's the side everyone (pet owners and breeders) should be on. Thanks for that Sandy.

 

[Bet]

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

I think this thought could be OK to be mentioned on this Thread.

I noticed on the CC List , the mention of Naming and Shaming Cavaliers if a Cavalier Health problem has occurred.

For us Cavalier Pet Owners ,what is wrong if our Cavalier has developed, say SM or MVD, and has been diagnozed by a Neurologist or Cardiologist, to say on a Cavalier List on the Internet that this has happened to our Cavalier and give the name of the Cavalier's Sire and Dam.

I would think that that would focus some Cavalier's Breeders Minds quicker than any-thing else would.

 

[Bet]

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

Mark, I have just read your Post about the Poor Cavalier Bitch having the Back to Back Matings AND Cesars ,I won't E-Mail you Privately ,I will say it openly, have some Cavalier Breeders no feelings at all for their Cavaliers, I do hope you will take this further, this Cavalier Breeder deserves to be Expelled from the CKCS CLUB if he or she is a CLUB Member.


Finally ,some Cavalier CLUB Breeders have the Brass Neck to talk about the goings on by Cavalier Puppy Farmers and BYB ,well........

Neither wonder as Rod has recently Posted ,I am sure Soured by the Antics of some Cavalier Breeders.

If the answer to the Health Problems of Cavaliers are left to some Cavalier Breeders ,what chance has the Future of the Breed got.

Some ot the Cavalier Breeders favourite Proclamation is, I have been Breeding Cavaliers for years, and will take no Lessons from any-one how it should be being done, well maybe they will have to,and listen to us True Lovers of our Cavalier Breed,and realize that this is now a different Cavalier World than what it was 10-20 years ago.

 

[Bet]

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

What an Apt Name Margaret has now given Cavalier Chat List, The Nasties Forum.

I know that the Bashing I have received from some Cavalier Breeders on that Forum
,this name surely does apply to some of them.

The things that are being said and Bandied about by a certain few Cavalier Breeders on that List , must be an Eye Opener to many Cavalier Pet Owners who like me have looked at the Cavalier Breeders with Rose Coloured Glasses,not all Cavalier Breeders are coming across like what is being shown to-day , but it's giving the other Cavalier Breeders such a bad name.

One quote that really stuck in my Gullet, on that Forum, that us Cavalier Folk should get a Life,and this quote hurt me as a Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owner most of all, to keep our nose out of other Folks Business.

I don't know the ins and outs of the Present Arguments, but it is my Business when I have been sold a Cavalier who only lived to 7 and the Heart Trouble in the Cavalier Breed was known about in her Back-ground.

I have passed on all this information that I have collected on to the Cardiologists, Researching the MVD Problem ,plus about another 400 Cavalier Pedigrees .

 

[Clairelou]

I am deeply saddened to read on the cc forum an ex breeder write "I don't suppose anyone has thought that not everyone can afford to have them scanned" o.k. she goes on to write that she used to do tests when she used to breed, credit to her for that. But it costs £115??!! if one can't afford that how can one afford to pay for vet treatment for pregnancy/whelping problems??!! :?

I think most people are aware that an MRI is only a snapshot in time, but it is the best tool available at present.

 

[Pat]

Bet, from my perspective, the Cavalier world seems exactly as it was 20 years ago - there were these same arguments going on (it was just MVD only and not MVD AND SM); there were good breeders who cared and did their best; there were breeders only interested in ego and fame; there were backyard breeders, puppy mills (just fewer Cavaliers in US mills because of no AKC recognition and a much less popular breed); there were breeders only interested in making a financial profit; there were small breeders and big breeders; there were "pet owners only." The entire cast of characters, good/medium/bad were all in play. The change now in the US is that there are MORE Cavaliers, pet owners, breeders so it's a bigger world.

The other difference I see now is the effect of the internet and the fact that long distance is free instead of 40 cents a minute! We used to spent a lot of money debating one to one on long distance calls - now we post on the internet and can share comments with more than one person at a time, which does cut down on the "hearsay."

As an aside, I've been blessed to have very long-living Cavaliers. If I had Cavaliers with the lifespans that you've described, I'd have left the breed long ago.

Pat

 

[Jay]

To have someone say that breeders are breeding for looks, when some people here are advocating breeding for MRI results -LOOKS -- phenotype choices-- not genotype choices-- and they don't get the similarity, it is frustrating.

What is frustrating to me is reading posts by people who throw terms around that they don’t fully understand. To say that MRI results are “LOOKS” is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. An MRI is a medical procedure designed to find physical abnormalities. To say that the results are “LOOKS” is out and out stupid. An MRI that shows a syrinx is not a “look”, it is an abnormal medical condition that can cause a dog severe pain.

Sandy keeps harping on how two MRI cleared dogs can produce puppies with SM. Since researchers are fairly certain, that SM is caused by recessive genes, of course that is possible IF both dogs are carriers for the gene. Anyone who understands Mendelian modes of inheritance will know that for single recessive genes, if BOTH parents are carriers, EACH offspring has a 25% chance of receiving both recessive genes and will display the trait controlled by those genes. Since the mode of transmission is still not fully understood in SM, we can only postulate from MRI what the chances are of passing on genes to future generations. If the mode of transmission of SM is through recessive gene(s) then if you see a clear MRI (at breeding age), you can postulate that at worst, the dog might be a carrier. When you see you see an abnormal MRI, you can postulate that the dog has both recessive genes and will always pass on the defective gene.

I work with children who have disabiliities. I work with families who have genetic defects. I have worked with families that have never had the genetic trait show up in their families only to have two or three of their children affected. I see families where both parents and children have the same syndrome. Even within families, the expression of the gene can vary from individual to individual. Genetics is a very complex subject. I have taken doctorate level courses in genetics. Some genes turn on at birth, others may turn on at different ages, some may need an external event to turn on. Right now, it still is not understood what causes the SM gene to express itself.

I am not "FOR ANY SIDE"-- I am very much in the middle. Do I health test-- YES. Actually if I were to say I am on any side-- It would be the 'cavalier dogs' side.

Then you should be advocating that breeders test the same as you do. The only way that researchers are going to find the gene(s) responsible for SM is for responsible breeders to test and share their results with the researchers. There should be no shame in producing a dog affected by SM IF the breeder has done everything in their power to prevent it. The shame comes when breeders don’t use the tools available to study SM and possibly find the genes responsible. Then maybe breeders will have the better tools available to combat this condition.

J.

 

[Margaret C]

Because every once in a while someone over here will say, "hey, I think I understand what you mean". Isn't EDUCATION and the use of free expression what will get us to understand where the other side is coming from.

To have someone say that breeders are breeding for looks, when some people here are advocating breeding for MRI results -LOOKS -- phenotype choices-- not genotype choices-- and they don't get the similarity, it is frustrating.

I would not want to see you leave. I think that we need a diverse range of opinions when debating these topics.

I do understand what you mean about the similarity of advocating for breeding from what is seen in a MRI picture, while condemning breeding for what is seen by the breeder's eye.
It is true that neither method will tell you what good or bad genes the dog actually carries.
The problem is that the gene test that will tell us does not yet exist, and will not exist, without the information provided by MRIs.

But why then is it thought that the absence of SM can be deduced by looking at a dog who seems to show no obvious symptoms?
How can it be thought that what you see externally can give as good a picture of that dog's SM status as a MRI scan?
The scan is only a snapshot in time, but that is true of so many health tests, including MVD checks, and it will show you if the problem is already present.

2 out of 2 pups. Quite an exception. I tend to believe (maybe erroneously) that different lines carry different parts of the issue and if you get them all-- you get the disease (also that bad gene combinations just happen)
This was a total outcross-- very low COI 4.5641 .

I also believe that every cavalier carries some of the SM genes and some puppies will be unlucky in the combination they inherit from their parents.

I do not, however, believe that linebreeding can allow you to escape SM or any other health problem, although it has suited some breeders with very linebred cavaliers to spread that myth.

You had two puppies with SM from MRI scanned parents. You may have said what their ages were, if so I missed it, but I presume these parents were scanned over the age of 2.5 years and were both SM clear.

You were unlucky, others have had the same experience here in the UK, but it does not mean that the SM guidelines do not work. They are designed to help the breed as a whole, and increase breeders' chances of getting puppies that do not develop early onset SM across the board. They cannot guarantee individual litters will be unaffected.

The protocol being short sighted is another issue-- it is also doesn't delve deep enough into the pedigree (littermate health, history of dogs in the pedigree). To me, this should have some value.

All health tests are blunt tools, but they are often all we have, and every breeder that opts out of breed specific health tests skews the results that would give the true information to the researchers.

How can we learn about the inheritance of SM, or whether the MVD protocol will actually move back the age of onset in a disease that afflicts so many cavaliers, if so few breeders fully follow the guidelines?

I can only talk with knowledge about UK breeders but I can say with 100% certainty that there are still only a handful of breeders, and they will be smaller hobby breeder, that breed only from heart clear cavaliers over 2.5 years old and check that the dog's parents still have no murmur at 5 years of age.

This is a really stringent and demanding protocol, a lot more difficult than the SM guidelines, but something that could now be followed by those who say that MVD should be the priority.

There are breeders who are doing a great job in tackling the SM issue, There are breeders who are in the process of getting there.
They deserve to be supported and encouraged, even if sometimes it seems there are more problems than solutions.
Sins

Yes, you are right, some of them are on my list, some are in phone and email contact, and I hope that I do support & encourage those that I know. If I sometimes seem to give them less than their due, then I apologise.

I do often criticise the top show breeders. I feel that those that are in a position to influence other cavalier breeders owe it to the breed to inform themselves about the health issues, and to set an example in their breeding practices.
There are plainly some people that just have not done that yet.

 

[Bet]

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

Jay,

Thank you for your Post.

It's folk like you who can get the message across to those who are casting doubts about what the Researchers are trying to do.

I did wonder why SM was found in other Breeds ,but when I read the Recent Veterinary Paper that said the Cavaliers were the only Small Breed of Dog to have Large Brains, that for Cavaliers there is Mix-match between their Brain Size and Skulls, there must be Genes somewhere involved to be causing this, Jay ,if you see this ,am I right in what I am thinking.

 

[Oreo]

I do not, however, believe that linebreeding can allow you to escape SM or any other health problem, although it has suited some breeders with very linebred cavaliers to spread that myth.

I just wanted to elaborate on this point. I do as well come to genetics knowledge from the human side and from working with the disabled, but as I am a dog lover am always looking to take this information farther.

This post will probably bore the heck out of those who have not interest in genetics and numbers . . . be forwarned.

Informed breeding can be used to diminish the risks of recessive conditions, but inbreeding or linebreeding isn't necessary for this. You do, however, need known carriers or affecteds.

We all know early onset full penetrant dominant single allele defective genese are usually easy to purge from a kennel line. This is because their effects are immediately visible.

As soon as you move to the recessives, proof of purging becomes a much more cumbersome project, because the recessive genes can remain hidden despite test matings, and this is why.

In the case of a simple single allele recessive defect, IF you have a suspect carrier, and, at your disposal, a homozygous affected dog to mate with, once you have produced 7 of 7 pups clear from this pair then there is a 99% probability that you don't have a carrier . . . of course this is only possible if the condition is not lethal. You could not morally make these test breedings if a condition was painful or lethal as there is the chance of producing affecteds.

Now if you have a possible carrier/possible clear and only have at your disposal, for a test mating, a known carrier (having only one recessive deleterious gene) then the number of pups produced to get 99% certainty of a clear dog on one side, is 17.

If you just suspect a carrier, and decide to use inbreeding to bring deleterious recessives to the surface, you would have to produce 35 of 35 clear pups from a mating as close as father to daughter to have 99% certainty the father was clear of simple recessive deleterious genes. You would also have to use multiple daughters as if father is a carrier some daughters will be and some will not be.

The more distant the pair is in relationship to each other, the higher the number of clear offspring is required to prove "clear" of even just simple recessives when inbreeding or linebreeding.

The numbers grow exponentially if the condition is polygenic . . . and then there are late onset conditions, and conditions that show variable penetrance.

In regards to the practicality of this, I don't know any breeder willing to keep 35 (or more) highly inbred and possibly affected pups. What would a breeder do with the pups?

If one has attempted to uncover recessives using less than these numbers, clear animals have not been proven. If the animals are related, then, chances are also increased that not so wonderful recessives conditions have been fixed instead.

These numbers were given by Dr. John Burchard on the Cangen list, but they can be worked out if one tries. For instance, for the first example, using a suspect carrier with a known affected dog, the chance of getting one of one normal offspring is 1 out of 2 - 50%. The chance of two of two normal offspring then is 1 out of 4 - 25% . . . . three of three is 12.5% . . . four of four is 6.25% . . . .and you work down to where the probability falls below 1% (in the first example this is at 7 of 7 pups).

 

[Margaret C]

With the Posts about the forth-coming UK CKCS CLUB nominations, should it be being considered that a Cavalier Pet Owner be being proposed, .

There must be quite a number of Cavalier Pet Owners ,who are members of the CKCS CLUB.

I have suggested to Carol Fowler that she would be a popular candidate with the 800 Cavalier Club members who don't show, and are basically pet owners that would like to see everything possible done to ensure their cavaliers live long and pain free lives.

Carol is unsure, but there is time to persuade her.

 

[Kate H]

Bet wrote: for Cavaliers there is Mix-match between their Brain Size and Skulls.

The early information coming from the Cavalier foetal research (which I think is being followed up by monitoring litters of young puppies) seems to be that the gene which controls growth of the brain and the gene that controls the growth of the skull are not communicating properly - so that the skull is told to stop growing, and the brain is told to go on growing (I hope I've understood this properly - not sure how genes work!). With the possible advances in genetic engineering, this looks as if it could be a very useful line of enquiry. But it all takes so much time...

Kate, Oliver and Aled

 

[Bet]

Talking to Cavalier Breeders

Thanks Margaret for the information about Carol, I do hope she would consider standing for the CKCS Committee,.

I do know that I and the many other Cavalier Pet Owners in the CKCS CLUB, would so much appreciate her putting her name forward.

I had'nt realized that there were 800 Cavalier Pet Owners in the UK CKCS CLUB.

Surely it's only right that we should be being represented.

 

[Bet]

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

Just read this on the UK CKCS CLUB WEB SITE

Under the Heading
Bitches to be Used for Breeding

No Cavalier Bitch must have NO MORE than 1 Litter in any 12 Month Period

No Cavalier Bitch to be Allowed more than 6 Litters in her Life-Time

No Cavalier Bitch to be Mated who has had two Ceasarean Sections ,as this would indicate possible Whelping Difficulties.

 

[MARK MARSHALL]

To whom it may concern..........................

Bet, I swear by almighty God that the info I shall now give, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Today, at approx 0830 hrs, I was walking in a northerly direction across my field when my mobile rang and vibrated within my trouser pocket.

I answered the call and identified the caller to be my informant, known to me as THE LAST SAMURAI. This person has been most reliable in the past and has taken many risks to help the cause.

My informant informed me that the breeder who bred the said bitch on three consecutive (BACK TO BACK SEASONS) occasions is a big personality and also a Judge awarding CC's within the Cavalier World.

Not one of the litters went smoothly and her peers around her, are fully aware of the said circumstances.

Thankfully for the bitch, she is now in a PET home so fingers crossed she will not be abused anymore !

The breeder in question is known for her strong personality and holds high office as does her partner in life.

I have full details of the bitch and owners and will do as expected.

This is an initial report to keep you informed whle I make further enquiries, to confirm certain details etc etc.

Regards Mark Marshall.

 

[Bet]

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

Mark,

Why I put my recent Post on CT,was I have only been a Cavalier Pet Owner ,never interested in the rules and regulations about the Breeding from Cavalier Bitches, till yesterday.

Well I got my eyes opened ,as I am sure will other Cavalier Pet Owners ,Lovers of our Cavalier Breed.

On the CKCS CLUB WEB SITE , the information is there for any-body to read,it could.nt be made any plainer.

This is why I really do feel that it is about time a Cavalier Pet Owner was on the Cavalier CLUB Committee,we seem to have different views about the Welfare of our Cherished Breed than do some Cavalier Breeders.

Maybe the Election for the CKCS CLUB Committee new Members has just come at the right time.