talking to Cavalier owners

[WoodHaven]

Well, many breeders have noted the same anomaly. I'd much rather have a dog with a asymptomatic murmur at 4 and live a long life, than a clear dog at 5+ dead before 7. The flaw is that dogs that died before 7 would still be within the protocol. Is that what we want?? I'd rather have LONG lived dogs in my dogs pedigree-- even if the breeder did breed their great grand dams at 2 instead of 2.5.
-------------------------
OK, this illustrates why I don't engage in these debates - and I'll go back to my practice!

I obviously failed to make my point in the difference between an anomaly (or statistical fluke) and a flaw (or error) in any program. We have ALL noted this anomaly if we've been paying attention, and we're not all breeders! Most people know about bell curves in statistics - there is a huge group that falls mostly within the norm and a few individuals who will be on the far left and the far right of the curve (far left being early murmur/long living and far right being late murmur/early death).

Um, I think everyone would choose the long-living versus dead dog!!

Do we want a few short-lived dogs within the protocol? If a "no" answer means that the protocol is scrapped, then my answer is "yes, I want those dogs in the protocol because I want to HAVE a protocol designed by experts." And I know that successive generations will correct for this statistical anomaly pretty quickly. If we scrap the protocol because of these individual dogs who don't follow the general rule, then we've got nothing. A good excuse if people are looking for an excuse to dump the protocol, but not valid for me. (And actually, I think that you follow the protocol so not valid for you either!) And, the protocol only deals with parents and grandparents of a litter - doesn't go back further than that.

Pat

I defend what I don't practice-- YES. I can see value in following other theories. Nature tends to thrive due to diversity-- not conformity.
I follow the MVD protocol and because of following the protocol I have a beautiful girl that is over 5 heart clear/CERF-- prelimed good hips, MRI clear that I spent a year and a half trying to get in whelp. Now I would be too fearful to breed her-- she is likely too old to safely whelp. The first time she came into season after 2 1/2 -- she was 3.
She is the last of her line for me.

The protocol being short sighted is another issue-- it is also doesn't delve deep enough into the pedigree (littermate health, history of dogs in the pedigree). To me, this should have some value.

 

[Bet]

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

Sandy , I still collect the ages of Long Lived Cavaliers, in fact I contacted the UK CKCS CLUB about a year ago ,asking if they'd think about putting a List of Long Lived Cavaliers onto their WEB SITE, if you check it you will they agreed to my request.

I don't think just,because we don't have any Cavaliers now ,but have given a home to SUSY ,a bit of every-thing ,who we got from the Scottish Dog and Cat Home, that should be hindering me in still having a love of Cavaliers, and having the memories of our Cherished Cavaliers
who are no longer with us. All our Cavaliers are really still with us ,they are buried on our Land.

Sandy ,if you are ever in London. Go to the Kennel Club Library ,where you will see the List of around 2,000 Cavaliers of 12 years and upwards, and 5 generation Cavalier Pedigrees from 1929- 1945,all written out by hand, that I have given the Library,

I don't think that is the work of a Person who is Soured with the Cavalier Breed.

 

[EddyAnne]

OK, this illustrates why I don't engage in these debates - and I'll go back to my practice!

Pat many people in Australia are tired of reading or hearing the repetitive talk and debates that have been going on for many years and are going on with other things in their life. This is happening not just in Cavaliers but in many other breeds as well including Cats. As the problems in Dogs and Cats persist that is the reason why we are now seeing our Government stepping in with Legislation and Codes of Practice for Hereditary Diseases.
.

 

[Margaret C]

I am confused-- wouldn't line breeding on dogs that have been cleared (MRI'd) produce more clear (in theory)? Isn't that what some breeders are banking on??

I don't know why breeders should be banking on line breeding to Grade A cavaliers. Even if a line has good results for SM, line breeding will double up on other hidden health problems & contribute to the loss of genetic diversity.
Breeding unrelated Grade A cavaliers is a healthier option for the breed

The situation at the moment is that very few show breeders scanned prior to August last year. In many cases they line bred with unscanned dogs that were SM affected but showing no symptoms, and doubled up on the problem in each generation.

I suspect that eventually the majority of the top stud dogs and brood bitches had SM and line breeding to them has left show bred cavaliers at more risk of SM.

I did a little research on the UK stud dog list in 2007 and found........

Top stud dog number 1 is sire of stud dog number 9
2 is Sire of 8 and 10
3 is Sire of 4 and 11 and half brother to 2
7 is grandfather to 3

It was an interesting exercise for me as it brought home to me how closely these dogs are related ( and this is only looking on the paternal side, the maternal side will be just as closely linked )

.

 

[WoodHaven]

If you line breed-- you won't be hiding as much. There are fewer surprises. Like breeding two blenheims-- you KNOW you will get blenheims. There are no black tricolors hiding in the breeding of two blenheims. At least that is how it was explained to me about doing test breedings. This is how you PROVE clears vs. carriers.

Outcrossing is the practice of introducing unrelated genetic material into a breeding line. It increases genetic diversity, thus reducing the probability of all individuals being subject to disease or reducing genetic abnormalities(only within the first generation). It actually can serve to increase the number of individuals who carry a disease recessively.

When undesirable traits begin to appear, breedings are selected to determine if a trait is recessive or dominant. Removal is accomplished by breeding two individuals of known genetic status, usually they are related.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcrossing#cite_note-8

 

[MARK MARSHALL]

Test breedings ...............................

Being new to breeding I am most keen to have guidance on how to proceed and have someone with more knowledge, tell me where to find suitable stud dogs and also have my own dogs used if they are of value to others ?

Is anyone organising such matings for the good of the breed or as I suspect, it is being left to individuals to do their own thing, trying not to upset strong personalities who can and would damage their enjoyment of showing.

Only this week. I heard of a repeat mating of dogs that first time around produced a young Champion. The Sire is now over 7 years and won countless CC's.

But still the dog remains unscanned - when £115 would ascertain if that dog carries SM and other issues.

Disgusting that ACCREDITED breeders would use such a dog merely to breed puppies of a winning type rather than putting health first.

Why is the CKCS Club not taking the lead on this matter ?

Regards Mark Marshall.

 

[HollyDolly]

Why is the CKCS Club not taking the lead on this matter ?

.

I think they tried to Mark but certain strong personalities namely x Breed note correspondent's Husband put a stop to it at the Club's AGM.

There are vacancies on the committee Mark, how about it????:w**h**:

Nanette

 

[MARK MARSHALL]

Committee Position.

It would be a pleasure to sit on such a Committee.

Get me voted for and I will fight the fight for Cavaliers and members who want change but feel unable to speak their mind.

Regards Mark,

 

[WoodHaven]

Sandy , I still collect the ages of Long Lived Cavaliers, in fact I contacted the UK CKCS CLUB about a year ago ,asking if they'd think about putting a List of Long Lived Cavaliers onto their WEB SITE, if you check it you will they agreed to my request.

I don't think just,because we don't have any Cavaliers now ,but have given a home to SUSY ,a bit of every-thing ,who we got from the Scottish Dog and Cat Home, that should be hindering me in still having a love of Cavaliers, and having the memories of our Cherished Cavaliers
who are no longer with us. All our Cavaliers are really still with us ,they are buried on our Land.

Sandy ,if you are ever in London. Go to the Kennel Club Library ,where you will see the List of around 2,000 Cavaliers of 12 years and upwards, and 5 generation Cavalier Pedigrees from 1929- 1945,all written out by hand, that I have given the Library,

I don't think that is the work of a Person who is Soured with the Cavalier Breed.

I just remember you writing that they all died very early. That was the reason I asked.

Been to London-- got a driving ticket, don't think I'll be back soon. And yes, I paid the ticket.

Thanks for pointing out the long lived on the UK cavalier site. Some of the dogs on the 'current golden oldies' have passed.

 

[RodRussell]

Just wondering how someone could become so soured on a breed for YEARS and not currently own one.

I would say that Bet is not "soured on" the breed, but that she is soured on the breeders. When the chairman of the UK Cavalier club writes that:

"There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals."

...then the breed has a really big problem because many breeders -- including "many breeders" in the UK breed club -- act irresponsibly in their breeding practices. I believe that the UK club's members are not unique. I believe that there are many members of the US breed clubs (CKCSC,USA and ACKCSC) who engage in the same irresponsible breeding practices, and that does not include the multitude of AKC-only Cavalier breeders who are not even members of the AKC's parent club for Cavaliers.

 

[EddyAnne]

I answered Bet's question about what it took to be on the puppy register. A member in good standing and registered dogs.

This isn't a health cert. It is a cheek swab.

Yes I know that a DNA Profile involves taking a cheek swab and as I mentioned the purpose for this is to maintain the integrity of the Pedigree Register. Integrity of the Register is vital when looking back for generations and gathering information including Hereditary Health information, particularly when DNA testing is NOT available for particular Hereditary Diseases. One could say the DNA Profiling is vital and compliments health testing for Hereditary Diseases.

I see microchips being used when health testing and that is great. DNA Profiling is another form of identifying individuals with 99.999% assurance, and additionally the DNA sequences can be used with the Sire’s and Dam’s DNA Profiles to establish correct parentage and pedigree assurance.

By the way, I remember this from the AKC Chairman when they started DNA Profiling and I wondered about addressing Hereditary Diseases and even about pups on Puppy Registers.
"Our experience with DNA in the compliance audit program taught us that 84% of the litters we found necessary to exclude from our registry because of incorrect pedigrees were caused by false sires."
.

 

[Bet]

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

Thanks Rod,

You have put in a Nut- Shell my feelings about many Cavalier Breeders.

I know that a good number are now claiming to be doing Health Testing ,but why were they not doing this 10-15 years ago, if they had would the Cavalier Breed be in the mess it's in to-day with the MVD Problem .

It seems to be a case of shutting the Stable Door after the Horse has Bolted.

Now to the Cavaliers' SM Problem, hopefully ,the Cavalier Breeders `who have been hiding their Heads in the Sand ,have now realized that it is a Serious Problem in the Breed,and can only be being tackled by MRI Scanning their Cavalier Breeding Stock to find out if there is a Syrinx Present.

The Syrinx defines SM. Not made up ,Sandy,was told this by a Neurologist.

This is the benefit of the Internet and Lists like Cavalier Talk, we Cavalier Pet Owners can now discuss about the Health Problems in our Cavaliers ,so that Prospective Cavalier Buyers now know what questions should be being asked from a Cavalier Breeder.

We Cavalier Pet Owners are now for sure living in different times ,than what it was like 5- 10 years ago.

Thanks to Karlin ,Margaret, Carol, and Jemima Harrison and her PDE TV FILM

 

[sins]

Thanks to Karlin ,Margaret, Carol, and Jemima Harrison and her PDE TV FILM

:thnku: ladies !

It was about this time I three years ago that I began researching cavaliers.I had grown up with springers and cockers as working gundogs but knew little about cavaliers.
Three years ago all the information I could find told me that 1% incidence of SM was about right ....
I'm now amazed at what has happened in the three years since I joined cavalier messageboards.The exchange of information has been incredible.
What has emerged into the public domain has been startling,shocking and may very well change the future course of the cavalier breed.
A very emiment surgeon once told me that there's nothing worse than the fear of the unknown and I believe he was correct.
What all this means to me as an owner is if the worst should happen, and my cavalier develops SM, I know I can deal with it in a calm,practical manner and do my very best for her.I will never have to go through the shock, the fear and stress of dealing with an "obscure" condition as others have had to do.There are dogs now living in comfort on medication who may have never been diagnosed and could have been living in pain had it not been for Margaret and Carol.
There are breeders who are doing a great job in tackling the SM issue, There are breeders who are in the process of getting there.
They deserve to be supported and encouraged, even if sometimes it seems there are more problems than solutions.
Sins

 

[Clairelou]

It would be a pleasure to sit on such a Committee.

Get me voted for and I will fight the fight for Cavaliers and members who want change but feel unable to speak their mind.

Regards Mark,

I for one would welcome this, the Cavalier world needs you Mark

 

[Bet]

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

With the Posts about the forth-coming UK CKCS CLUB nominations, should it be being considered that a Cavalier Pet Owner be being proposed, .

There must be quite a number of Cavalier Pet Owners ,who are members of the CKCS CLUB.

 

[Kate H]

Margaret wrote: The situation at the moment is that very few show breeders scanned prior to August last year.

Would it perhaps be fairer to say 'very few of the larger show breeders'? I took Oliver to the first of the Midland Club scanning days at Chestergates in June 2007 - 70 Cavaliers scanned over three days and, with one notable exception, almost all belonging to small breeders with only a few breeding stock, for whom in at least one instance a positive scan meant losing the last bitch in her line. As far as I know this has continued to be the pattern - certainly it was when Oliver was rescanned in May this year. In this year's Cavalier Club Year Book there was a drop in the number of advertisements, but a 15% increase in advertisers who said they MRI scanned - and virtually all of them were smaller breeders. When, oh when are the big breeders with popular, fashionable stud dogs going to start scanning?!!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

 

[MARK MARSHALL]

The simple answer is..........................

Kate, they will not do so, as the bad results will bounce around the Cavalier World and the sale of their dogs will descend at a rate of knots !

The best thing for the breed would be for the older stud dogs/bitches to be scanned (yes I have said this before) so that their status is known and the off-spring can be checked.

That would provide wonderful data and enable others to identify which younger dogs are showing signs of early onset 'SM'

The need to do such checks, only needs to be linked to KC puppy registrations/sales and the battle is halfway to being won.

Regards Mark.

 

[Margaret C]

Being new to breeding I am most keen to have guidance on how to proceed and have someone with more knowledge, tell me where to find suitable stud dogs and also have my own dogs used if they are of value to others ?

Is anyone organising such matings for the good of the breed or as I suspect, it is being left to individuals to do their own thing, trying not to upset strong personalities who can and would damage their enjoyment of showing.

Only this week. I heard of a repeat mating of dogs that first time around produced a young Champion. The Sire is now over 7 years and won countless CC's.

But still the dog remains unscanned - when £115 would ascertain if that dog carries SM and other issues.

Disgusting that ACCREDITED breeders would use such a dog merely to breed puppies of a winning type rather than putting health first.

Why is the CKCS Club not taking the lead on this matter ?

Regards Mark Marshall.

I have been reading with a great deal of amusement a thread on the 'nasties' forum

Someone took exception to Mark's post and wrote.......

"if it was you that came to my house Mark, then my feeling about you is that you a hypocritical KEYBOARD COWARD hiding behind your computer"

It turns out that it was not Mark who visited his house.

Now, with most people the unjustified diatribe that was posted would bring an apology, but not from this breeder or the usual strident group that joined in with him. They have obviously decided that attack is the best defence.

This group includes the chairman/health representative/puppy register coordinator of Mark's local cavalier club who should really make sure of her facts before criticising one of her club members.
I can only presume she has a problem with Mark's former profession...........

"once a policeman, always a policeman!!"

Not really the reaction of your usual responsible citizen?

Instead of an admission that they were mistaken they are making very nasty personal attacks on Mark, so I think I would just like to make a couple of points.

It was not Mark who recently allowed his underage Champion dog to be used on a bitch who was being mated for the third consecutive season. It was known that this bitch would need to have her third caesarian to deliver this litter.
This regional club committee member should read his club's Code of Best Practice.

Nor is Mark like the vituperative breeder who, having routinely mated 15 & 16 month old bitches before the PDE film, is now trying to reinvent herself as a health conscious breeder ( I understand she wants to stand for the Cavalier Club committee )
Allowing your underage ruby dog to be used at stud is against the same Code of Best Practice, and scarcely qualifies you to criticise other breeders.

So Mark, in answer to your question......

Is anyone organising such matings for the good of the breed.

I think the answer from this group of top breeders is NO

 

[MARK MARSHALL]

What do you forum members wish me to do ?

My immediate reaction to reading about a bitch being mated again, having already had two ceasars and all 3 litters being back to back - is to write to the KC and the CKCS club making a complaint in the strongest terms.

I would however like the comment of others, so please either reply to this thread or PM me, or email me at [email protected] or whatever.

I will then decide on what is the appropriate action based on the views of other pet lovers and breeders alike.

Regards Mark Marshall.

 

[Margaret C]

Margaret wrote: The situation at the moment is that very few show breeders scanned prior to August last year.

Would it perhaps be fairer to say 'very few of the larger show breeders'? I took Oliver to the first of the Midland Club scanning days at Chestergates in June 2007 - 70 Cavaliers scanned over three days and, with one notable exception, almost all belonging to small breeders with only a few breeding stock, for whom in at least one instance a positive scan meant losing the last bitch in her line. As far as I know this has continued to be the pattern - certainly it was when Oliver was rescanned in May this year. In this year's Cavalier Club Year Book there was a drop in the number of advertisements, but a 15% increase in advertisers who said they MRI scanned - and virtually all of them were smaller breeders. When, oh when are the big breeders with popular, fashionable stud dogs going to start scanning?!!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Hello Kate,

Yes, you are right, I should say "very few of the most successful show breeders"...........
There has been some wonderful 'small' breeders who have scanned for quite a few years now and now have a good few generations of scanned cavaliers. They deserve our thanks and admiration.

Unfortunately they were a drop in the ocean when it came to trying to ensure a healthy future for the breed.

I know that some of the popular stud dogs actually have been scanned but the results of these scans are only released if they are good.

Some of these dogs disappear to the USA and other countries, some are still used here, despite their poor results, by breeders who basically just want to breed a litter of lovely show puppies.
They are willing to take a chance that health problems will not show up too early. If it does, they will rehome the cavalier to some innocent pet owner who they hope will love it so much that they will not think of returning it.
So many people have told me that their young, well bred, cavalier had symptoms from the day they bought it.

Cavalier Club members should be aware that it can be shown that they were sent the SM guidelines in January 2007. Any litter produced after that date, from unscanned dogs, could be a potential time bomb.
If a dog develops SM & the owner decided to make an issue of their breeding practices in Court, they may not have much of a defence