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Cavalier Breed Notes

Oreo-- ever watch the nature channel??
Lions, right off the top of my head. New male becomes alpha-- he kills off all young and breeds with all the females in the pack. He doesn't care if the females are his mom, sisters -- he breeds them all and natural selection will have the weak die off. Yes, that is nature.
Yes- there are some animals that don't act this way. There are even some species that are monogamous.
There are whole species of animals that have very high COI's.

I took in the gerbils from my daughters class. I took all the females because the teacher had 2 generations of inbreeding going on. The 5- 6week males were kept with their mother and aunts too long and we had to take care of three litters of very inbred gerbils.

You can't take everything as all inclusive. I said humans were a good example because of the vast genetic diversity. This is one part of a huge puzzle, but people were discussing the diseases being exacerbated by vast inbreeding.

Must run, we have a 40' container to unload in the rain today--
 
Oreo-- ever watch the nature channel??
Lions, right off the top of my head. New male becomes alpha-- he kills off all young and breeds with all the females in the pack. He doesn't care if the females are his mom, sisters -- he breeds them all and natural selection will have the weak die off. Yes, that is nature.
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This is generally not true. Young male lions are driven off by the pride when they reach puberty. Once they become proficient at hunting, they become nomads. Male littermates will often pair off when leaving the pride. They group up against males from other prides when they become more mature and strong enough.

You've attack many different aspects of this all on one post-- makes it difficult to keep clear.
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IMHO, Oreo's post is very well written and is very clear to me.
J.
 
Jay said:
This is generally not true. Young male lions are driven off by the pride when they reach puberty. Once they become proficient at hunting, they become nomads. Male littermates will often pair off when leaving the pride. They group up against males from other prides when they become more mature and strong enough.



IMHO, Oreo's post is very well written and is very clear to me.
J.
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Answering the lists of problems was my issue. It would have to be answered in different text or written like a law write up. On point a, sub chapter b etc... etc..

The nursing kittens MUST be killed (males and females) to drive the felines back into season again. I saw this episode just the other day. Felt sorry for all those females loosing their babies.

IF anyone here knows the answer to the cavalier health dilemma-- besides complaining-- as NIKE says, Just do it. It is way too easy to sit and tell people how to better what they are doing. It is much harder to walk in those shoes.
 
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The nursing pups MUST be killed (males and females) to drive the felines back into season again. I saw this episode just the other day. Felt sorry for all those females loosing their babies.
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I am not disagreeing that lion cubs are killed by the new dominant male. I am arguing the point that the dominant male is/is not related to the females. I agree with Oreo, that under natural conditions, animals in the wild generally do not inbreed. Animals unnaturally placed together may inbreed, but in most cases "in the wild" this just doesn't happen.
J.
 
Cavalier Breed Notes.

Yes Sandy ,

I sure can tell you how the Health of our Lovely Cavalier Breed can be improved from the Dire Straits it's in at moment because of their MVD and SM Problems.

For ALL CAVALIER BREEDERS ,not just the few who are doing this, NOT TO BREED from ANY CAVALIER who is suffering from these Conditions.

It's as SIMPLE as that !!!!!
 
Should have added this to my Previous Post , .

Many of us who are on this List are or have been Cavalier Pet Owners, not Breeders as Sandy suggests we should be.

What I think now ,because of the Internet ,we Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owners who have had so many tears because of the Suffering of our Cherished Cavaliers ,are not prepared to have this go on any longer.

We are now making our Voices heard, thanks to Margaret and Carol appearing on the PDE TV FILM ,we now feel confident enough to say to Many Cavalier Breeders ,enough is enough ,get your Breeding of Cavaliers in order,so that our Cavaliers can have the chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

If only the majority of Cavalier Breeders had been honest in the Past and not Bred from Unheathy Cavaliers,would the Breed be in the mess it's in to-day .



Sandy ,are you saying that the In- Breeding of Cavaliers has not caused any Problems.

I respectfully suggest that you and others who have this same opinion ,contact the Geneticists who are involved with the Cavalier Health Problems.

I was involved with Liverpool University a few years ago ,and had sent them Pedigrees of Cavaliers either suffering or had died from Heart Trouble, they were Researching MHC , the Researchers said that the In- Breeding of Cavaliers was involved in this,.

I was even sent a copy of where about on their Gene Map this was.

So Sandy ,I have not sat back and have done nothing ,but only complain, to help our Beloved Cavalier Breed !!!

Finally why is it that it seems to be only us Owners of Cavaliers, mainly Pet Owners , not Cavalier Breeders,noticed when our Cavaliers have had a Health Problem appearing ,and it seems that other Cavaliers are also suffering from the same problems, we try to get something done about it,

Why do some Cavalier Breeders want to bury their Heads in the Sand about the Cavalier Health Troubles.

Is it because their Reputations will suffer in the Show Ring ,or...... their Income will be reduced. !!
 
Sorry about this folks, But thought this was worth mentioning, Professor Sir P Bateson, whose Recommendations will be being issued shortly,has said that there is no diffrence in Grand- Father to Grand -Daughter ,Grand-Mother to Grand- Son Matings, it is In-Breeding.

Breeders seem to have kidded them-selves this is Line Breeding ,but it's not.
 
Bet said:
Yes Sandy ,

I sure can tell you how the Health of our Lovely Cavalier Breed can be improved from the Dire Straits it's in at moment because of their MVD and SM Problems.

For ALL CAVALIER BREEDERS ,not just the few who are doing this, NOT TO BREED from ANY CAVALIER who is suffering from these Conditions.

It's as SIMPLE as that !!!!!
Click to expand...

Simple
Bet, I've said this to you on numerous occasions. I don't know of ANY breeder that would breed a dog SUFFERING from any health condition.
In the USA, the OFA has a CHIC program. Canine Health Information Center
 
Bet said:
Should have added this to my Previous Post , .

Many of us who are on this List are or have been Cavalier Pet Owners, not Breeders as Sandy suggests we should be.

What I think now ,because of the Internet ,we Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owners who have had so many tears because of the Suffering of our Cherished Cavaliers ,are not prepared to have this go on any longer.

We are now making our Voices heard, thanks to Margaret and Carol appearing on the PDE TV FILM ,we now feel confident enough to say to Many Cavalier Breeders ,enough is enough ,get your Breeding of Cavaliers in order,so that our Cavaliers can have the chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

If only the majority of Cavalier Breeders had been honest in the Past and not Bred from Unheathy Cavaliers,would the Breed be in the mess it's in to-day .



Sandy ,are you saying that the In- Breeding of Cavaliers has not caused any Problems.

I respectfully suggest that you and others who have this same opinion ,contact the Geneticists who are involved with the Cavalier Health Problems.

I was involved with Liverpool University a few years ago ,and had sent them Pedigrees of Cavaliers either suffering or had died from Heart Trouble, they were Researching MHC , the Researchers said that the In- Breeding of Cavaliers was involved in this,.

I was even sent a copy of where about on their Gene Map this was.

So Sandy ,I have not sat back and have done nothing ,but only complain, to help our Beloved Cavalier Breed !!!

Finally why is it that it seems to be only us Owners of Cavaliers, mainly Pet Owners , not Cavalier Breeders,noticed when our Cavaliers have had a Health Problem appearing ,and it seems that other Cavaliers are also suffering from the same problems, we try to get something done about it,

Why do some Cavalier Breeders want to bury their Heads in the Sand about the Cavalier Health Troubles.

Is it because their Reputations will suffer in the Show Ring ,or...... their Income will be reduced. !!
Click to expand...

You could have added this to your last post using EDIT

My unhealthy litter came from a total outcross (which I've told you before) a very low COI. They came from parents that are still VERY healthy today. Following the MVD and SM MRI's protocols this should have been an extremely healthy litter. It isn't.

Your last line is ridiculous . IF You breed ill dogs-- people will NOT buy puppies from you. I don't care how pretty the dogs are-- peoples reputations would be murdered. I would have to give back all the 'income' (which is a joke) from a pup if they had early onset MVD or SM.

But, much like a dog chasing it's tail, repeating myself is getting us no where-- so Whatever Bet.
 
Cavaliers as we know them today came from a very small gene pool! There is no getting away from this. Ergo, however carefully breeders are at trying not to mate dogs that are too close, the fundemental fact is that it will still be 'inbreeding' to an extent (if you are going to be pedantic here) and it's no-ones fault it is just a fact.
There are other breeds of dogs that have evolved from equally small gene pools, so to the people out there who are so inscensed by inbreeding; I suggest you go to the local dog pound and get a mutt! and forget about our beautiful precious cavaliers that we all love so dearly, because without so called 'in-breeding' the cavalier wouldn't exist!!!!!


And as for the idea that wild animals avoid close in-breeding - Rubbish! what about stallions and rams etc that sire everything in the herd, until the up and coming new leader appears - And who do you think that is????

Their son!! more often than not.:lol: What a laugh
 
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Perhaps every- body should calm down about In-breeding, wait till what Professor Sir P Bateson and APGAW have to say about this subject.

I think that at the moment the Most Serious Problems for Cavaliers are MVD and SM.

What is so noticeable ,when this argument is lost ,these issues are not discussed, but it's the People who are involved with them ,that others have a Go at.

This is happening more and more on other Cavalier Lists.
 
Bet said:
Perhaps every- body should calm down about In-breeding, wait till what Professor Sir P Bateson and APGAW have to say about this subject.

I think that at the moment the Most Serious Problems for Cavaliers are MVD and SM.

What is so noticeable ,when this argument is lost ,these issues are not discussed, but it's the People who are involved with them ,that others have a Go at.

This is happening more and more on other Cavalier Lists.
Click to expand...

Bet its always the same xxx
 
It is not always the same where I am for change is coming to the dog and cat world as the Government now has "Codes Of Practice". Next year via the media the Government may start educating the public that if they buy a puppy or kitten to make sure they obtain appropriate health testing certificates for hereditary diseases where breeders are required to provide by the Government "Codes Of Practice".

First think about Puppy Farms with hundreds of breeding dogs and wonder what changes might possibly happen.
Our Government years ago brought in mandatory microchipping laws, and microchip numbers can be put on health testing certificates. Also I have heard of inspectors going to Puppy Farms with microchip scanners where they scanned all the dogs, and they also checked records, dog licenses and permits plus other things as well.

Yes the following is interesting including the part I bolded about new owners of any puppy or kitten.

NSW Government
"Animal Welfare Code of Practice Breeding Dogs And Cats"

10.1.2.2 Where a heritable disease is recognised in a breed and where there is screening procedures or a test for that disease the person in charge in the case of a stud cat or dog or bitch or queen should:
• have a current official evaluation or test result for the dog or cat for such hereditary disease;
• provide the official evaluation or test result to the owners where the dog or cat is to be mated to an animal not owned by the breeding facility;
• provide the official evaluation or test result of both the sire and the dam to the new owners of any puppy or kitten;
• endeavour to ensure that the genetic make-up of both sire and dam will not result in an increase in the frequency or severity of known inherited disorders.
.
 
Cavalier Breed Notes.

Eddy,

There is just one important word wrong in the Code of Practice you describe.

Should , would be better changed to MUST.
 
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