Can the cavalier breed be saved?

[Bet]

Like Margaret, I respect others that have different opinions and speak out. We all have the right to our own feelings which can even change each day.

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CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Anne ,

My opinion has never changed for over 20 years , that Cavaliers with MVD should NOT be Bred from, and now that Cavaliers with SM should not be Bred from either.

Until this is done our Cavaliers have no chance of Surviving .

I did'nt add Jemima Harrison's Final Paragraph from her Blog, but I will now.

IN- Breeding to a Greater or Lesser Extent within a Closed Gene Pool has created the Cavaliers' Health Problems .

Some Researchers caution against an Out -Cross until the Genetics of MVD and SM ,the Cavalier Breed's Two Most Serious Probles are Nailed, but there could be a Very Long Wait for this .

She concludes by saying.

Surely we are already way Past the Point at which ,Monitored Out--Crossing Programme should be Started?



Bet.

 

[anniemac]

Dr. Rusbridge said in breeding guidelines that if older asymptomatic cavaliers must be used (for genetic diversity) then they should be mated to an A. Personally researchers is who would know and still ongoing. I would look to neurologists over anyone just like when they introduced the mvd protocol in 1998. Of course that has had longer research.

So your answer is no. My answer is I hope so and that is why I feel research is important

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[anniemac]

Can someone please clarify. I know the blog but have not read what You are mentioning. shouldn't we look to Dr. Rusbridge or at least breeders? I am totally confused as to gene pool and Maybe I shouldn't have answered

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[Davecav]

Can someone please clarify. I know the blog but have not read what You are mentioning. shouldn't we look to Dr. Rusbridge or at least breeders? I am totally confused as to gene pool and Maybe I shouldn't have answered

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I think the blog that is being referred to is Jemmima Harrisons, Pedigree dogs exposed/ She is a journalist/film producer. NOT AN EXPERT ON Genetics/SM/MVD etc.

This is my personal opinion - but I think she would be more than happy to see Cavaliers (and other breeds) disapear off the face of the earth - as it would make a really good 'story'

She has no affiliation to Cavaliers.

It is the researchers that are trying to find the genes that cause these problems that we are all pinning our hopes on, together with the breeders who are breeding for health.

Reducing the gene pool further is not an answer. (But I don't think any sensible person would advocate this)

 

[anniemac]

I think the blog that is being referred to is Jemmima Harrisons, Pedigree dogs exposed/ She is a journalist/film producer. NOT AN EXPERT ON Genetics/SM/MVD etc.

This is my personal opinion - but I think she would be more than happy to see Cavaliers (and other breeds) disapear off the face of the earth - as it would make a really good 'story'

She has no affiliation to Cavaliers.

It is the researchers that are trying to find the genes that cause these problems that we are all pinning our hopes on, together with the breeders who are breeding for health.

Reducing the gene pool further is not an answer. (But I don't think any sensible person would advocate this)

Thank you so much! Feel much better and will continue on my quest for ellas birthday wish.


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[anniemac]

I just really want people to continue to support ruperts fund and other research projects and when I read things are hopeless it upsets me.

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[sins]

We all get times where we are deeply upset about the problems in the bred.
Its especially tough when you have to see the effects every day of syringomyelia on a little dog who means everything to you. Some days I feel we can't ask Daisy to go through one more week of what she has to endure.But I can't let her go...
Personally I don't know if the breed has a healthy future,and I do believe the situation is grave.
I believe also that there are very many good people trying to find a way to improve the situation,researchers,breeders,scientists and cavalier owners.
As for the outcrossing with another breed,while in some quarters,there may be some support for the idea,but we need to look at what the researchers have to say.
Back in 2007 there was an international symposium on Syringomyelia and questions were put to experts like Clare Rusbridge, Guy Rouleau and Sarah Blott.Some well known breeders and also Carol Fowler posed questions.I believe Margaret attended.
On the subject of outcrossing to other breeds:
There was said to be 46% diversity within the breed,it was felt that with good breeding schemes and if the genetic basis was figured out,that it would be possible to limit the disease and keep the breed.
Ideally it would have to be done with guidance and having the genetic markers and what was referred to as the computer programme that Sarah Blott hoped to design.
So here we are 3 1/2 years later,no EBVs available for beeders,but progress in the search for genetic markers and a greater awareness of the extent of the problem.
So none of the tools that would be needed to support the introduction of an outcross are in place ,and anyone attempting it would be as blind as the initial founders of the breed in terms of what exactly you were adding and taking away.
The future of the breed rests in the hands of the people breeding the litters...
Some will carry on regardless,oblivious to health issues,some will adopt a holding position and others will breed only from unaffected stock.
It's all up in the air and nobody can predict what way it will turn out.
Sins

 

[Margaret C]

This is exactly my point. You could have a cavalier over 5, very small syrinx, extremely good heart line along with other health issues who is asymptomatic.

Just to clarify my feelings on the issue of using Grade D dogs

Logically I can see the need to use affected but asymptomatic dogs to keep the gene pool as diverse as possible.

The problem is that there is too many ways that breeders can use this as an excuse for keeping affected dogs with no special health merit in their breeding programmes.

1) These D dogs may not always come from an extended family that have certificates to show they were murmur free when elderly. One long lived ancestor does not make a 'good heart line'

2) These D dogs could be owned by breeders that are in denial. Would they really be able and willing to recognise SM symptoms?.

3) These cavaliers can sometimes be rescanned early-onset E grades That is not the same as using a D dog.

Using a Grade D cavalier as one of a mating pair raises the chances of having affected puppies to 50%. The risk is high enough with grade A x A matings ( 25% chance of affected puppies ).

I would not take the chance of buying from a litter with a D parent nor would I suggest that someone looking for a family pet should do so.

Why is it thought acceptable to sell the non-show standard puppies from these more risky litters to pet buyers?

As far as I an concerned if breeders want to increase the chances of producing puppies that suffer, then they should be prepared to keep them all until they know whether the gamble has paid off or not.

Let the breeder who wants to use D dogs deal on a daily basis with the resulting affected offspring. Let them watch the dogs suffer and let them pay for the medication.

I respect margaret carter because even though I don't feel the same, she asked a question and stated she does not know if they should continue to be bred. That's her opinion and she is open about it.

I would be more able to accept that cavaliers will continue to be born at great risk of a shortened and painful life if I could see any evidence that breeders were making some effort to reverse what is happening, but the published figures shows it is not so.

All the stud dogs on the list in the 2010 Yearbook were used before 2.5 years. The dogs that won the most points in the show ring were used before 2.5 years.

Cavaliers are being destroyed by those that in the words of the UK Cavalier Club should "act in a responsible manner with due regard to the welfare of the dogs under their control"

 

[Brian M]

lo Margaret

What makes these breeders use these stud dogs at such an early age when we all know it is total contradiction of the MVD breeding protocol as advised by their own Club .

What makes them all do it .?

It really irritates me when some acclaim we have been breeding for 50-60 years or more therefore we know all ,I just look at the state of the breed now and the complete mess it is in with a limited chance of survival and these same ones are saying it is only them who have the knowledge and they are going to save the breed ,pls pass the bucket I feel sick .Oh and of course SM is not real though there may be the odd one around with something wrong but we know all those silly researchers know nothing and anyway its all grossly overstated so leave it to us and don't forget look what we have given you after 50 years ,yes us breeders of 50 - 60 years standing will save the Cavalier breed .icon_devil
Yuk!

Sorry if I digress but post after post is doom .

Maybe if all these aged breeders disappeared and left the breed to a younger more pro health conscious vibrant group of young good breeders that are around ,maybe with them working with the researcher's we could move forward cos the old way is broken and wont work.

 

[anniemac]

Hello Margaret

What makes these breeders use these stud dogs at such an early age when we all know it is total contradiction of the MVD breeding protocol as advised by their own Club .

What makes them all do it .?

It really irritates me when some acclaim we have been breeding for 50-60 years or more therefore we know all ,I just look at the state of the breed now and the complete mess it is in with a limited chance of survival and these same ones are saying it is only them who have the knowledge and they are going to save the breed ,pls pass the bucket I feel sick .Oh and of course SM is not real though there may be the odd one around with something wrong but we now all those silly researchers know nothing and anyway its all grossly overstated so leave it to us and don't forget look what we have given you after 50 years ,yes us breeders of 50 - 60 years standing will save the Cavalier breed .icon_devil
Yuk!

Sorry if I digress but post after post is doom .

Maybe if all these aged breeders disappeared and left the breed to a younger more pro health conscious vibrant younger group like Sins breeder on the south coast ,maybe them working with the researcher's we could move forward cos the old way is broken and wont work.

Brian,

I agree and don't understand about not following the mvd protocol. I don't like classifying all breeders in one category. Yes, I have heard "we've been breeding for 30 years etc." But I have also heard from an older club member that breeders and club members are dying out and they need younger people. That is why I personally feel to go to shows and learn. Yes I will be faced with a stubborn person and I'm in usa but also might meet others. I know they are there but keep lower profiles.

I just heard someone disagree with % affected and I have stated that I don't care about % when I have one. I care about moving forward and letting research and experts understand why some show symptoms, others don't, genes, etc. SM can be medically managed for a lot and yet I am crying not knowing ellas future.

So I like to look at each dog, each breeder, each medication but I don't know much about mvd research but that has been pretty much agreed on for a long time as far as protocols go.

Yes I may be niave and have not been involved for a long time, but why not start now. If one person snubs me, I will find another. They will eventually retire and I would like to learn more.

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[anniemac]

Brian,

I too get tired of the doom and gloom no future. You always know how to make me smile so maybe time to adjust and look at how to move to a more positive future.

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[Margaret C]

Hello Anne,

I know that you are really trying so hard to understand, so to answer a question you asked elsewhere.

Personally I frequently doubt there is any hope that we will improve the future prospects of the breed. There should be hope, but those who should be the Guardians of cavaliers do nothing until forced into taking action.

In my more optimistic moments I do believe we will need to outcross, perhaps to a variety of breeds, but this should be planned carefully and with the advice of geneticists.
If the Chiari Malformation, the poor quality of the occipital bone, and the inability of the brain tissue and the hind brain to 'communicate' and stop growing are some, or all, of the reasons why the Cavalier has an increased risk of SM, then outcrossing to a breed that may bring improvements in those areas would seem to be logical.

In my more pesimistic moments I think this breed will continue to degenerate into one that no civilised society can allow to continue to exist and suffer.
Not because it was inevitable, but because cavalier breeders will not 'wait and test'.

So why do I continue to raise money and arrange for little cavalier bodies to be transported to pathology departments so tissue samples can go to research?

Probably because I love this very special breed and I don't feel able to give up on it yet.

 

[anniemac]

Margaret,

I know you love the breed, monty and grumpy old william both have stones already. Its just so much to understand and genetics freak me out when I do think a lot needs to still be understood. I do get scared people will focus on one thing and not another. If we start putting emphasis on one thing, I don't know. You have been to seminars, lead as health chair, been a breeder and involved in shows and so I am sure there is so much, actually I KNOW there is a lot of things I don't understand and want to learn.

You have always said you can talk about the UK and I don't know or feel its my place to talk about things with the kc in the uk when the usa still has some work to do. I get told several things and I do mix things up, but I have a problem when anyone (which you have never done) tells me that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Which I admit I don't but this is not just breeders.

I get frustrated because I want to know when ella passes, I can donate her remains to a worthy cause like the one you created. I have no idea and don't know what to do here.

SM is a very frustrating thing and like ellas future, I don't know but I want to at least be a part of things while I can.

I wish I got involved with freestyle. I would have loved to know about dancing with cavaliers.

So I know you always ask questions that make me think and I like that. I just have a different view and maybe I want to know more before.

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[Margaret C]

Hello Margaret

What makes these breeders use these stud dogs at such an early age when we all know it is total contradiction of the MVD breeding protocol as advised by their own Club .

What makes them all do it .? .

Hello Brian,

That is one question they will not answer, but I don't think it is for the good of the cavaliers involved.

Oh and of course SM is not real though there may be the odd one around with something wrong but we now all those silly researchers know nothing and anyway its all grossly overstated.

Obviously researchers from all over the world are in a conspiracy to deceive cavalier owners about the extent of the problem.

the old way is broken and wont work.

I don't think that message has sunk in yet.

There are a lot of breeders that still think that if they ignore all the fuss it will go away.
They still imagine they will be able to go back to breeding, without any thought of health, as they have done for years.

 

[tuppenlil]

Obviously researchers from all over the world are in a conspiracy to deceive cavalier owners about the extent of the problem.

There are a lot of breeders that still think that if they ignore all the fuss it will go away.

Margaret

Yes I find the conspiracy theory interesting too...neurologists from all over the world, the Animal Health Trust, the Royal Veterinary College, the BVA, the BSAVA ( who just gave Clare Rusbridge an award in recognition of her work on SM) leading radiologists, MRI centres, dozens of research papers.....even the KC for funding some of this work.....they are obviously all in the conspiracy together!

The only 'conspiracy' is a few breeders who still think that if they ignore it, a grossly overstated problem......it will go away. Their conspiracy is to either not to scan or scan and not share the results, to stop others sharing their results, not supporting the EBV, keep trying to discredit some of the researchers.....

If a few years ago we had all got together and acknowledged a problem, all shared our results and our 'anomolies' with all the researchers we might have more answers by now.......

I still believe there is some hope for the breed as there are some very responsible breeders who are doing their very best against all the odds. And we are lucky to have some very dedicated researchers.


Maggie

 

[Bet]

Margaret

Yes I find the conspiracy theory interesting too...neurologists from all over the world, the Animal Health Trust, the Royal Veterinary College, the BVA, the BSAVA ( who just gave Clare Rusbridge an award in recognition of her work on SM) leading radiologists, MRI centres, dozens of research papers.....even the KC for funding some of this work.....they are obviously all in the conspiracy together!

The only 'conspiracy' is a few breeders who still think that if they ignore it, a grossly overstated problem......it will go away. Their conspiracy is to either not to scan or scan and not share the results, to stop others sharing their results, not supporting the EBV, keep trying to discredit some of the researchers.....

If a few years ago we had all got together and acknowledged a problem, all shared our results and our 'anomolies' with all the researchers we might have more answers by now.......

I still believe there is some hope for the breed as there are some very responsible breeders who are doing their very best against all the odds. And we are lucky to have some very dedicated researchers.


Maggie

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?


Can I put these comments again that I have Posted before on this List from an Article.

I sure think that they are very apt in this Discussion.

Genetic Disease continues to inspire a range of Negative Human behaviour ,wrapping the Subject in a Shroud of Secrecy and Denial.

We all know that this happening at the Moment , that some Cavalier Breeders continue to say that the SM Figures are being exaggerated by the Researchers and the Broken Hearted Cavalier Owners of Cavaliers with SM.

(Not even with the SM Figures ,but even by a Newly Appointed Health Representative of the CKCS CLUB who has said that she does not believe the MVD figures given by the Researchers into the MVD Problem in our Cavaliers.)

Back to the Article.

It says the Intimidation to enforce SILENCE, THE FEAR of Speaking out , and the Inability to Face Facts.

The Breeders who put WINNING above all other Goals ,their belief is, it does'nt matter as Long as the Dog Wins .

Their Dog must WIN ,as Must their DOG'S Off-Springs ,and Woe betide any-one who stands in their way as they Pursue Greater Breed and Personal Glory

THIS EGO DRIVEN BEHAVIOUR AFFECTS GENETIC DISEASE CONTROL

IF A GENECTIC PROBLEM IS NOT APPARENT ,
THEY WILL IGNORE IT!!!

If another Person knows about the Problem ,any means will be used to QUIETEN that Person ,such as BULLY TACTICS and RUMOR MONGERING

Can I just mention to those So Called Guardians of our Beloved Cavaliers .

Remember about the Heart Broken Kiddie who has just been told that His or Her Cherished Cavalier has been Put to Sleep because of the Devastating Disease of either SM or MVD which is Afflicting our Cavalier Breed

The Article mentions the OSTRICH SYNDROME , which means that Many Breeders ,and I will substitute this for SOME CAVALIER BREEDERS ,who will find Excuses and Justifications for not doing Health Screening Tests.

The Fear of Genectic Diseases ,the Article goes onto say ,can lead to GROUP BEHAVIOUR ,some-times the FOLLOWERS of a BIG NAME who wish to CURRY FAVOUR, HEALTH RESULTS WILL BE SUPPRESSED ,and even HEALTH PROGRAMS STIFLED.

Bet

 

[Margaret C]

The consequences of genetic deterioration.

I have just read a comment about a population of wolves on the Isle Royale in the US.

This is said to be a natural experiment on the effects of inbreeding alone, with continuing natural selection and no artificial selection for appearance.

The wolves are cut off on the island because ice bridges to the mainland only form when winters are unusually severe.

"The scientists found that 58 percent of the wolves on Isle Royale exhibit a congenital malformation in the lumbosacral region or lower back, and 33 percent display a specific deformity—lumbosacral transitional vertebrae—which can cause full or partial paralysis of the rear legs and tail, as well as back pain."

"For the last 12 years, every one of the dead wolves the researchers have found has displayed bone deformities. In contrast, these deformities occur in only 1 percent of studied wolf populations that are not inbred."

"Up to now, wildlife management agencies in the US and Scandinavia have cited the Isle Royale wolves as proof that small wolf populations can avoid genetic deterioration and remain viable.
"Our study removes one more example that some use to downplay the consequences of genetic deterioration," the Swedish scientist Raikkonen says"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090402171440.htm

 

[sunshinekisses]

It really irritates me when some acclaim we have been breeding for 50-60 years or more therefore we know all ......Maybe if all these aged breeders disappeared and left the breed to a younger more pro health conscious vibrant group of young good breeders that are around ,maybe with them working with the researcher's we could move forward cos the old way is broken and wont work.

Yes, once the older breeders retire and keep all their secret information about breeding, all we will be left with is EBV's and breeding protocols set up by researchers and scientist to help eliminate the breed health problems. Imagine that.

 

[Jay]

It really irritates me when some acclaim we have been breeding for 50-60 years or more therefore we know all

I have been in my chosen profession for well over 30 years. If I continue to do now what I learned when I had first started, I would be doing a huge disservice, even malpractice to the deaf and hard of hearing children I work with. I do ongoing continuing education to keep current with ongoing research, even getting my doctorate degree a few years ago.

Experience is important, but if you don't keep up with current research, you are nothing but a dinosaur. I don't know anyone who would want a doctor who was still doing what they did even 10 years ago! I guess I don't understand why breeders are not taking advantage of all of the tools that are available to at least try to help produce healthier dogs....I would be embracing the researchers who are trying to find the answers.

J.

 

[anniemac]

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