• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Confused

Sorry.

I DID mean that what I had written didn't sound very friendly and that was not my intent. Levi started scratching tonight and I didn't realize how really stressed out I am about him. I just started crying and holding him. It didn't seem to worry him that I was crying. He licked me on the nose and then tried to get me to feed him something. He is hungry all the time from the steroids. It has been a little over three weeks since his surgery and I know that he couldn't possibly be healed. Maybe he was just hurting from his surgery. I don't know. I was writing that last thing and watching him. Sent it off and he scratched some more and tears just started squirting out of my eyes. I don't think I have ever had such sudden and dramatic crying.

So I do know I am stressed out and that is probably why what I wrote did not sound friendly to me. I tried to preface it by noting that it didn't but evidently I didn't even make that clear.

I was really just trying to speak about the general level of ignorance and deception in the puppy market here. The people who buy puppies don't know anything and a lot of the people who call themselves breeders don't know anything either. Except how to keep cranking out the puppies and grabbing up the money. It is sick and sad.

I do believe that it will never stop unless there is a two pronged approach. The general public needs to be educated and ethical breeders need to "self police." The ethical breeders could form a set of clear and scientific standards for testing and breeding and then refuse to certify anyone unless those standards were met. Somewhat like how doctors are licensed. Sure, there are a few bad doctors but the majority are held to standards by their peers. If this happened, the careless and deceptive breeders would be driven out of business. NOT being certified would be a sign that the breeder could not be trusted.

Instead of that, there are all these secrets. It is impossible to educate the general public without being accused of breeder bashing. Well, a very large percentage of the so-called breeders in this country DO need to be bashed. Right now, tonight, I would like to bash anybody who calls him/herself a breeder but is, in all reality, just a cruel criminal thief. I would like to bash people who lie about testing and who think that Champion lines are an excuse to get away with ANYTHING.

BTW, Levi DOES have Champion lines. That is what would be so ironically funny...if it weren't just so very, very sad.

Kathy
 
Kathy,

I can "hear" the pain, frustration and desperation in your post. I just wanted to let you know how very sorry I am that you're going through this. And also how sorry I am that Levi has had to suffer. You are going through something I would not wish on anyone. I can't imagine what it's like to watch your dog suffer in pain.

This may sound selfish, but I hope I never have to know what you're going through. I'm sending positive thoughts to both you and Levi. Hang in there, you're doing all you can right now.

Tara
 
antigone said:
I DID mean that what I had written didn't sound very friendly and that was not my intent. Levi started scratching tonight and I didn't realize how really stressed out I am about him. I just started crying and holding him. It didn't seem to worry him that I was crying. He licked me on the nose and then tried to get me to feed him something. He is hungry all the time from the steroids. It has been a little over three weeks since his surgery and I know that he couldn't possibly be healed. Maybe he was just hurting from his surgery. I don't know. I was writing that last thing and watching him. Sent it off and he scratched some more and tears just started squirting out of my eyes. I don't think I have ever had such sudden and dramatic crying.

So I do know I am stressed out and that is probably why what I wrote did not sound friendly to me. I tried to preface it by noting that it didn't but evidently I didn't even make that clear.

I was really just trying to speak about the general level of ignorance and deception in the puppy market here. The people who buy puppies don't know anything and a lot of the people who call themselves breeders don't know anything either. Except how to keep cranking out the puppies and grabbing up the money. It is sick and sad.

I do believe that it will never stop unless there is a two pronged approach. The general public needs to be educated and ethical breeders need to "self police." The ethical breeders could form a set of clear and scientific standards for testing and breeding and then refuse to certify anyone unless those standards were met. Somewhat like how doctors are licensed. Sure, there are a few bad doctors but the majority are held to standards by their peers. If this happened, the careless and deceptive breeders would be driven out of business. NOT being certified would be a sign that the breeder could not be trusted.

Instead of that, there are all these secrets. It is impossible to educate the general public without being accused of breeder bashing. Well, a very large percentage of the so-called breeders in this country DO need to be bashed. Right now, tonight, I would like to bash anybody who calls him/herself a breeder but is, in all reality, just a cruel criminal thief. I would like to bash people who lie about testing and who think that Champion lines are an excuse to get away with ANYTHING.

BTW, Levi DOES have Champion lines. That is what would be so ironically funny...if it weren't just so very, very sad.

Kathy
Click to expand...

My two that have SM have a champion sire with dual champion grandsire.
 
Confused.

Karlin ,could it be ,with your permission answer Norma Inglis on her remarks on the Cavalier Chat Forum.?

Yes I do live about 4 miles from Lanark where the Scottish Cavalier Champ Show was held,about 2 weeks ago, passed by ,going for our Shopping in Lanark,but since I had been at it for past 2 years ,didnt see the point of going again .

It was 2 years ago when I went to the Show , I first noticed how the appearance of the Cavaliers has changed from when we did a little bit of showing in the late 80's early 90's.

In my opinion ,many now have Smaller Heads, Shorter Legs ,and Longer Backs,is this due to the Minaturization that Dr C Rusbridge, mentioned recently on her Veterinary- Neurological Web Site.

Also could I comment about N Ingle's remarks about if I had gone to the Show I could have spoken with Ann French ,the Cardiologist, that also would have been a wasted journey to the Show ,since she is another of the Experts I have spoken to on the Phone about the MVD Problem afflicting our lovely Breed.

In fact she got some of the Cavaliers's Pedigrees suffering from Heart Trouble.

Finally could I include in this Post the mention of Carol(Fowler) and the mention of her campaign

www.cavaliercampaign.com

This can be seen 0n the K9 Magazine.

I never could have tackled a Web Site like what Carol has done, she has done more in the past 6 years than what I ever accomplished in the Past 20 years, .

Even when our Beloved B/T Becky was diagnosed with Epilepsy ,and I knew that in her Pedigree Back- Ground ,there had been Epilepsy, and got in touch with Dr M, Willis the Geneticist, he asked for the Pedigrees I had ,then phoned me back ,advising me to contact her Breeder .

This I did only to have the word Bull Manure ,but it was'nt Manure that was used ,screamed at me!!
 
Bet said:
This I did only to have the word Bull Manure ,but it was'nt Manure that was used ,screamed at me!!
Click to expand...

Now, now, Bet. Wait for the death threats and the bodily harm threats. Bull manure, I can handle (as long as I don't have an itchy nose). But the middle-of-the-night phone calls from drunk Cavalier breeders, threatening me, that's when I know that progress is being made!
 
Confused,

Thanks Rod, did you ever think we'd be on the same side !!!

I really do think I have struck a raw nerve, Sorry Folks about all this ,but in case you are wondering about my Comments in this weeks Dog World ,.

It was mentioned in the DW Cavalier Breed Notes that at the Lanark Cavalier Champ Show, that there were 73 Cavaliers Heart Tested and found to have no Heart Murmur.

I made the comment that ,I did'nt know the ages of those Cavaliers ,but did hope that the Recommendations of the UK CKCS Club Breeding Guidelines ,and the advice from the Researchers into the MVD Problem in our Breed would be being followed,if those Cavaliers were under 2.5 years of age, that is ,not to Breed from Cavaliers till they are 2.5 years of age ,also if possible ,the Health Status of their Parents is known about,

This is so that the early onset of the MVD in Cavaliers can be being held back to a later age before it appears.

As I have mentioned , here in Britain ,50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,that means ,probably there will be 100,000 Cavaliers living at that age to-day in Britain, put another way, 50,000 Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 .

As was recently said by the Cardiologist at the UK CKCS CLUB's AGM ,this is no better than it was 18 years ago.
 
RodRussell said:
Now, now, Bet. Wait for the death threats and the bodily harm threats. Bull manure, I can handle (as long as I don't have an itchy nose). But the middle-of-the-night phone calls from drunk Cavalier breeders, threatening me, that's when I know that progress is being made!
Click to expand...


No death threats yet for me, but a regional club chairman has threatened to punch me, while a former friend wanted to stand in the queue for her turn.

Malcolm Burley,Janet Ireland, Angela Baker were all threatened back in the 1990s because they talked about their SM dogs. It is par for the course if anyone talks about the health issues in cavaliers.
Kathy has probably received her nasty emails from exactly the same people that were in action then, and for the same reason. They do not want people to know they have been breeding from dogs with SM.

I have received more verbal abuse and vague threats of legal action than bodily violence, and of course there was also a SGM.

My favourite accusation, from one of the best known abuse writer, is the 'you are mad' one. This has been used against UK and USA breeders, pet owners with concerns about cavaliers from certain lines, and health campaigners for over a decade.
A good example is.......

" perhaps you need ' professional ' help to open your mind... and come to terms with your guilt. I think you're a very sick, obsessed and embittered person"
HOW DARE YOU......features a lot in her private hate correspondence too.

We have a nice collection of selected gems from this cavalier carer. I'm sure others will recognise her style.
 
Margaret ,it was great to read your Post, I have never said this before ,but now I think I can , I have already received an Apology about 3 weeks ago about what was being said about me, and also have Printed off all the Statements made about me.

Just felt that at some time they maybe could come in useful

What is it with some of those certain few Cavalier Breeders that they are desperate to try and gag us Cavalier Folk who trying to improve the Health of the Cavalier Breed that we love so much,I am sure their Antics must be an Eye Opener to other Cavalier Folk who are reading their Posts.

They will never stop us now ,but what are those Cavalier Breeders Scared of, are they still living in the By Gone Times when the Cavalier Health Problems were being swept under the Carpet ,but thanks to you, Margaret, Karlin ,and Carol those days are now long gone.

It's the Cavaliers and their Owners who are going to benefit.
 
Margaret, just read your Post again,I sure do recognize the Style, ,Heres me thinking that the Men in White Coats would soon be coming to Take me Away.
 
antigone said:
I was really just trying to speak about the general level of ignorance and deception in the puppy market here. The people who buy puppies don't know anything and a lot of the people who call themselves breeders don't know anything either. Except how to keep cranking out the puppies and grabbing up the money. It is sick and sad.

I do believe that it will never stop unless there is a two pronged approach. The general public needs to be educated and ethical breeders need to "self police." The ethical breeders could form a set of clear and scientific standards for testing and breeding and then refuse to certify anyone unless those standards were met. Somewhat like how doctors are licensed. Sure, there are a few bad doctors but the majority are held to standards by their peers. If this happened, the careless and deceptive breeders would be driven out of business. NOT being certified would be a sign that the breeder could not be trusted.

Instead of that, there are all these secrets. It is impossible to educate the general public without being accused of breeder bashing. Well, a very large percentage of the so-called breeders in this country DO need to be bashed.
Click to expand...

I think that when the two Dog Reviews are published there will be changes in the UK. Rules will be imposed because so many dog breeders have shown that they cannot self regulate. There will be loopholes, and some breeders will use that wriggle room to avoid doing what is right for the dogs, but it will still be an improvement on what we have now.

It would be good if the KC & breed clubs would find some backbone and make club members breed in a responsible manner. Then there could be an advertising campaign to educate pet owners to buy a KC registered dog, from a breed club member, because then you really would be buying from the best.

I would like to see every breeder have a 'mission statement' and that would be to breed the healthiest puppies possible in each litter.
Everything else, size, shape, pigment, markings should be factored in after that one priority. Clever breeders would rise to the challenge and still produce beautiful dogs, because that is what real breeders do.

I wonder how many people breeding now could honestly claim that is their mission statement now?

We hear a lot about another popular phrase 'stakeholders'.....
Pet owners are as much stakeholders in ensuring that cavaliers have a future as any breeder. So use that power to make sure that you have a voice. Don't buy from breeders that don't health test, spend your money supporting those that breed to the protocols and have the paperwork to show it. Tell your breeder when your pet shows up with an inherited illness. Join your local breed club and have a say in what happens ( unless it is one of those clubs that has restricted admission for fear of a 'pet person' takeover ) Write for your club magazines, dog magazines, newspapers. Tell other cavalier owners what you know.
Pet owners can campaign.......... look at Carol Fowler.

For those in the USA, I'm afraid recognition of the SM problem lags way behind that of the UK, but like Kathy you can make yourself heard. Again, join your regional cavalier club. Write about SM in their magazines, check out how much health information they show on their website. Write to the American Kennel Club and the old Cavalier Club to tell them about your dog and ask them what advice they are giving their breeders.
Write to movers & shakers such as Oprah Winfrey, get the PDE film shown on one of the big networks......... Do whatever it takes.

Use your feelings about your SM dog to make things happen.
And if that counts as breeder bashing..........So be it.
 
Bet,

That is what I was TRYING to say but said it very badly. Every comment we have about dishonest breeders and how the things they do are making the problems of Cavaliers worse is called breeder bashing. We can't be outraged or full of sorrow about the genetic diseases of our beloved pets, diseases which could have been a thing of the nightmare past if honesty and good science would have been the rule. We can't be outraged by the practices of some people who call themselves breeders (really, the vast majority of people who sell puppies in the US) without being sent hate mail from other people who call themselves breeders.

Evidently, the only thing you have to have to call yourself a breeder is a fertile dog of either sex. There isn't any fixed set of basic standards which anybody must meet to qualify as a breeder. It is, as I tried to say before, as if anybody who could buy a stethoscope on eBay could hang out his/her shingle and call themselves a doctor.

Pet owners who grieve for their pets are considered totally unqualified to speak about what is happening.

If REAL breeders would get it together and establish a set of ethical standards about such things as health tests and accepted breeding practices and then make sure that anyone who joined the organization adhered to those standards, they would have a clear way to be distinguished from the sleazy criminals. As long as ethical breeders are unwilling to do THAT, they are going to have to get used to being accidentally grouped in WITH the sleazy criminals.

If breeders do not like the press they get, it is up to THEM to change how they "regulate" (HA!) breeding. Beating up on people who complain about the state of animal welfare will not change the reputation of breeders. As it is now, all they can do is to lurk around forums like this watching everything that is said and being ready to lob bombs at the people who are already the victims of their own lack of unity and standards.

Ugly. That is all. Ugly. Oh, yeah, and EVIL, too.

Kathy
 
(y)

And as long as even health representatives to some breed clubs are among the most prominent critics of their nationally-appointed vet health specialists (to the extent of belittling them on international discussion lists :sl*p:), or openly snub scanning programmes, or privately recommend pet buyers ignore their public advice to 'run a mile' from any breeder that does not cardiologist test for MVD, on the basis that their friends have puppies from unscanned parents -- how are pet buyers and those with affected dogs and those breeders trying to find other scanned dogs for their breeding programme supposed to believe that breed clubs are genuine in trying to help resolve these health issues? If your own members, particularly the ones on the national and regional committees, are widely seen to act in this way, why will people ever trust the that the clubs are committed to doing anything? Meanwhile some national health clubs sit around arguing about placing funding to redo the same studies that have been done to try and *disprove* the consistent results that come back, rather than funding new research and broadening existing research to actually move forward rather than run in place (at best). It is utterly ridiculous. Both responsible pet buyers and responsible breeders (many of them small breeders who do not want to rely on the whisper-club of recommendations as to who is really scanning and has appropriate dogs) are left with little reliable advice or guidelines or support.

Without some sort of breeder established programme that absolutely requires proof of compliance to protocols, the situation for breeders and for pet owners will never improve (at least the US has some form of registration for test results with OFA but that doesn't include MRI scans). It looks instead like this may have to be forced on to breeders and backed with consumer protection legislation with real teeth. Please get your own house in order and then I am sure you will see renewed commitment and partnership and participation and support to address these health issues. Because too many are not seen to be doing this, people either are not buying cavaliers at all or thinking why support a supposed good breeder, especially when even the clubs do not have any way of certifying a good breeder or defining one? There are buyers crying out for some sort of club-certified programme that would at least let buyers and other breeders see who is cardiologist/eye/hip/SM testing -- then let people choose who they want in the basis of that as a starting point. If as some breeders consistently argue, the tests don't matter, I am sure breeders have the confidence then to convince some buyers that this is the case? But why effectively make everyone who does work hard in this way hide that they do so? There is enormous pressure to keep everyone at the level of the lowest common denominator.
 
chloe92us said:
There's no question that show dogs of today look different than dogs of yesterday. I think it has more to do with the preference of judges.
Click to expand...


oh boy, that was something I have been noticing, too. My boy looks very much like the first cavalier champion, Daywell Roger (amount of feathering, head shape, leg length, angling of shoulders, hocks, etc.), but I don't see those type dogs winning either. The type of dogs winning today has a much different look.
 
Last edited:
antigone said:
Pet owners who grieve for their pets are considered totally unqualified to speak about what is happening.

If REAL breeders would get it together and establish a set of ethical standards about such things as health tests and accepted breeding practices and then make sure that anyone who joined the organization adhered to those standards, they would have a clear way to be distinguished from the sleazy criminals. As long as ethical breeders are unwilling to do THAT, they are going to have to get used to being accidentally grouped in WITH the sleazy criminals.

If breeders do not like the press they get, it is up to THEM to change how they "regulate" (HA!) breeding. Beating up on people who complain about the state of animal welfare will not change the reputation of breeders. As it is now, all they can do is to lurk around forums like this watching everything that is said and being ready to lob bombs at the people who are already the victims of their own lack of unity and standards.

Kathy
Click to expand...

:mexwav:

This is too well stated not to be repeated at least one more time. Kathy, could I have permission to crosspost this in another forum (in the future) if need be?
 
cavs r us said:
oh boy, that was something I have been noticing, too. My boy looks very much like the first cavalier champion, Roger Daywell (amount of feathering, head shape, leg length, angling of shoulders, hocks, etc.), but I don't see those type dogs winning either. The type of dogs winning today has a much different look.
Click to expand...

Your cavalier looks like this?? Ch Daywell Roger?

http://www.home.no/cavaliernett/1daywell.jpg

I'd love to see a picture
 
Last edited:
cavs r us said:
He is much closer to that "type" than he is to the ones you see getting put up today.
Click to expand...

Daywell Roger was a very clean faced, minimally ticked, shorter loined, dark eyed, dog....(all good things, even today) His head looked decent from the picture, but there is no way I'd guess lay of shoulder of a fully coated dog from a picture.
There is maybe one breeder I know, that 'may' have gotten her hands on this boy to say whether or not he was structurally sound. She is 92, I believe and lives in Canada.
 
I wish there were more photos of these foundation dogs out there. I can find so little, and I'd love to research far more about them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top