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Confused

Murphy said:
Originally Posted by WoodHaven
See, I thought she was working with the theory that if we can't prove two dogs are clear, they are/maybe carriers. Working with two carriers will give you (simplistic version) one clear, two carriers, one affected. I could be wrong.


Sandy, Just some clarification:
When I said 'spot on', I was referring to the first paragraph (above) of your post.
I have no knowledge whatsoever, of what theory Sarah Blott may be considering.
However, as you say above until we can prove otherwise, we must assume that all dogs are carriers.
This leads to the 'theory' of 1 in 4.

Clairelou, if you follow what I have written above, then it really does not matter what words you use to describe a dog which is graded 'clear' on an MRI scan.

Until we can prove a dog is not a carrier, we must assume that it is.

Elspeth
Click to expand...

That is the way I read your comment.
The Incomplete Penetrance would explain how a dog could MRI well and still be "affected" by the disease. Still pass it on etc..
 
More confused than ever.

The question still has to be answered , what is the Mode of Inheritance of Cavaliers with SM.

The SM/ CM Genes have still to be found.

So I would guess it's no use speculating about the Mode of Inheritance till those Genes are discovered,

At present I would think the only way forward with the Cavalier SM Problem is to MRI Cavalier Breeding Stock.

Unfortunately the Cavalier MVD Problem just can't be being said by Cavalier Breeders , is all about what we do now and in the future.

The Heart Problem has been known about in the Cavalier Breed since ,as I have often said, from the 1940's, I have contacted the LUPA Researchers who are doing the Research into the MVD Problem in our Breed and they have agreed that it is possible that there will be many Cavalier Carriers now with the MVD Gene/Genes.

The instructions from the Researchers ,because of this, is that the best out-look for our Cavalier Breed is to try and delay the onset of MVD is by not Breeding from Cavaliers before they are 2.5 years of age combined with the Heart details of their Parents at 5 years.

This is just not the UK CKCS MVD Breeding Guidelines, but also from Professor J Bell ,Geneticist , Tufts University ,America, who gave me this information,.

Are the Cavalier Breeders now doing this ,I wonder if this will also be the Recommendations from the APGAW Committee to be given on Monday ,2-11-09,.
 
Hi Elspeth, could you please expand on "2 ideal mates" do you mean 2 dogs scanned clear of sm? will produce a ratio of 1 out of 4 affected puppies? Many thanks.
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For simple modes of inheritance of single recessive genes, the chance of EACH INDIVIDUAL receiving both recessive genes is 25%, the chance of receiving one dominant and one recessive gene is 50% and the chance of receiving both dominant genes is 25%. You absolutely have to look at it with each individual puppy. The fact that two clear scanned dogs can produce puppies with SM suggests that clear scanned dogs can still be carriers of the gene(s).

Unfortunately, often times, it isn't that simple. Some genes are evident at birth, others wait to turn on. There are some syndromes where some characteristics are evident at birth and secondary characteristics pop up later in life. Even within families with the same syndromes, some characteristics may be present in some individuals and not others. Some may be more prominent in one family member than in others.

Within syndromes themselves, there may be "types", ie, type 1, type 2,etc. Each of these different "types" are associated with different gene combinations. The more information that can be given to researchers, the better they will be able to make determinations about what is actually happening in both MVD and SM. I am in awe of researchers who have the patience and determination to study and find answers to what is happening in these very complex disease processes.

J.
 
I think what Elspeth is saying is: True, there is not yet a test for the genes that carry SM. The ONLY thing that can be done now is to MRI dogs and pick the most logical breeding matches. However, even then, 2 A graded dogs CAN AND DO produce affected offspring. This FACT leads her and many others, to assume (because that's all there is to go on right now) that ALL Cavaliers are carriers. SO...for every 4 pups, there is that statistical chance that 1 will be affected with SM.

You're twisting words around again Bet, and sounding like you're trying to get an argument going. Your questions have already been answered.

What I am curious about; is what are the statistics on breeding an SM affected dog with an A-graded bitch or vice versa? Do the odds of inheritance increase?
 
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Confused.

Where have I gone wrong ,I quoted the information that Dr Rusbridge has put on her www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk Web Site,with recent Web Site updates, and Karlin also mentioned in her Post yesterday .

I will ,with Karlin's permission ,Post Dr C Rusbridge's recent Web Site Update.

Quote,

What causes Chiari-like malformation(CM)?

CM is not yet fully understood ,somehow the Minaturisation Process in the Cavalier went Awry and unlike many other Toy Breeds the Brain did not decrease in Size in Proportionwith the Skull .

The Cavalier appears to have a Brain more appropriate for Bigger Dog.

Studies in the Griffon Bruxellois(Rusbridge et al 2009)have suggested that CM in this Breed is Characterised by a Short Skull base.

This shortening results in an Compensatory increase in the size of some of the other Skull Bones ,meaning that the Forebrain is accommodatedhowever there is no compensatory increase in size of the back of the Skull ,meaning that there is not enough room for the Cerebellum and Brain Stem.

There is more on the recent information on Dr C Rusbridge's Web Site if any-one cares to read it.

So Chloe ,I can't understand what I have done wrong in mentioning this,and any other information ,is information I have had from experts that I have contacted,and passed it on, what is wrong with that, .

In all my Posts I have never got to the level of giving Personal insults.

All I put the Personal Insults I am being subjected to at the moment, must be when others have lost the argument , they then stop about the Issues and go for the People instead.
 
Thanks Jay, I have just read your interesting Post ,so really what the SM Problem boils down to is , how successful the Genome Research will be in Canada in finding the CM/SM / Gene/Genes.

In the meantime ,for Cavalier Breeders to be MRI Scanning their Cavalier Breeding Stock, since in a Post to-day ,it said that it should be assumed that all Cavaliers will be Carriers of the SM /CM Gene/ Genes.
 
Bet, I did not say anything personal about you; just commented on your "forum style". I'm just saying that many times I get confused reading through threads because you jump around and create new topics within a thread that are off-topic, and probably should be started in a new thread. That's all. See, now didn't that sound confusing? Welcome to my world! :rolleyes:
 
Bet said:
More confused than ever.


The instructions from the Researchers ,because of this, is that the best out-look for our Cavalier Breed is to try and delay the onset of MVD is by not Breeding from Cavaliers before they are 2.5 years of age combined with the Heart details of their Parents at 5 years.

This is just not the UK CKCS MVD Breeding Guidelines, but also from Professor J Bell ,Geneticist , Tufts University ,America, who gave me this information,.

Are the Cavalier Breeders now doing this ,I wonder if this will also be the Recommendations from the APGAW Committee to be given on Monday ,2-11-09,.
Click to expand...

I am confused too Bet, as I understand it AGPAW is not a breed specific committee just a general animal welfare committee - I would have thought it extremely unlikely they would recommend anything re Cavaliers as a breed.
 
Sorry Chloe for lashing out at you, at the moment I am feeling bruised at the Venemous Insults I have received.

There is a particular Post I have just read on the Cavalier Chat List, which will I am sure will explain how many of us Cavalier Pet Owners feel.

To go onto Murphy's mention of Cavalier Breeders feeling vulnerable at the moment, it should never be being forgotten how vulnerable Cavalier Pet Owners are feeling knowing their Beloved Cavaliers are suffering from SM or MVD.

Next Point ,the APGAW Committee are working alongside Professor Sir P Bateson's Committee,he has already mentioned in his prelimary Report ,SM in Cavaliers,but all will be revealed on from APGAW 's Report on Monday.

Sorry about this Chloe, jumping about again but wanted to mention this fact.

A few years ago Dr M . Willis, the World Renowned Genetist, from here in Britain, wrote an Article in Dog World, when he had heard about 50% of Cavaliers having a Heart Murmur at 5 years, that this would mean that
41% of Cavaliers would be Carriers of the MVD Gene,

9% of Cavaliers would not have MVD.

To put figures on this,

There will probably be 100,000 Cavaliers alive to-day ,that means
50,000 of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur.

41,000 will be MVD Carriers.

I can't work how many 9% of rest will mean in figures. No good at Maths.!!but it can't be very many Cavaliers left who could be OK.

Some-body said in a Post yesterday ,it could be assumed the all Cavaliers could be Carriers of the SM/CM Genes ,so that possibly means that 100,000 Cavaliers living to-day could be SM Carriers.
 
I mentioned the Plea from a Karen ,a Cavalier Pet owner, on the Cavalier Chat List, just wondered is this the same Karen who Posts on this List, if it is ,Thank you for what you have said.

I know that the BYB 's and Puppy Farmers have a lot to answer for, but for us Cavalier Pet Owners ,it's us who have to pick up the Pieces when our Cavaliers develope a Health Problem when Cavalier Breeders just do not carry out Health Tests on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, this does not only apply , unfortunately only to the BYB's and Puppy Farmers,but to some other Cavalier Breeders as well.
 
Karen ,thanks for putting me in the picture, your Post sure did tug at my Heart Strings.

Could I be allowed ,before this Thread has run it's course ,since I think it's the perfect Thread to pose this Question.

Is the reason why I have to face so much antagonism from some Cavalier Breeders , be because they want their the Breeding Circle to be a Closed Shop, but because I am a Cavalier Pet Owner ,never been a Cavalier Breeder ,only went to a few Cavalier Shows ,but know ,I think about as much about the History of our Cavalier Breed as those certain Cavalier Breeders do ,having spoken to a number of the Old Cavalier Breeders who are no longer with us,

Always asked the Experts Researching the Cavalier Health Problems and passed on the information I was given ,collected Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from MVD ,and passed them onto Researchers at the Universities researching the Cavalier MVD Problem, all this has upset those certain few Cavalier Breeders ,this is why I am so resented.

I was once told about, a couple of years ago,to stop Poking my Nose in by a Cavalier Breeder,.

I think that remark really does explain the Treatment I am getting at the moment.
 
Bet,

I can FULLY appreciate what you must be getting in terms of nasty email and venom. I got that by simply quoting what the breeder who owns the sire of my SM dog, Levi, said when I reported that Levi has SM.

I think that you are right, BTW. I find that people in general rarely know anything about SM. When I took Levi for his surgery at LIVS he was quite the topic of conversation for people who saw him. I did not meet ONE person (and I have to tell you Levi was quite the focus of attention for at least 100 people) who had any knowledge of SM at all.

When people ask me about him and why he had his head shaved or why he has a visible incision on the back of his head or why I have to take him in a stroller if I am going to take him anyplace, I find that NOBODY knows about SM. I am NOT just talking about Boise, ID. Levi and I went through the Las Vegas airport twice and through Midway airport in Chicago. When Levi was going to and from surgery, every place we stayed was full of people who had absolutely NO idea about all the serious health problems of Cavaliers. For many people, a Cavalier is the kind of dog that one of the characters on "Sex and the City" owned and that is all they know.

I honestly do not know what to say when people ask me about owning a Cavalier. I have to caution them that Cavaliers have MANY health problems and that they need to be VERY careful if they choose to adopt a Cavalier. Of course Levi is (was!) cute and people love these little dogs just because they are so cute and so sweet. They think that Cavaliers would be great to have for their next dog.

The local paper has two classified ads for Cavalier puppies all with AKC registrations. Most people really do think that AKC registered means that the dog is guaranteed to be healthy when, in fact, AKC registration does not speak to health issues at all. These puppies are selling for $800USD and MOST people really believe if they pay THAT much for a puppy that is a sign that they are getting THE BEST.

My puppy started showing symptoms (probably) before I adopted him at five months. I was extraordinarily lucky to have a vet who also owns a (rescue) Cavalier and knew about SM. The MRI for Levi locally to confirm his diagnosis ended up being just short of $2500USD. THEN I had to decide what to do and I had to decide rapidly. He was getting worse rapidly and not really responding well to neurontin, Tramadol, Prilosec, or anything else he was given. It was very clear that I had only two choices: euthanasia or surgery. Since it is impossible to get the newer and more successful surgery anywhere close to where I live, I took him over 2000 miles for surgery.

NOBODY knows about Cavalier health problems here or anyplace we traveled. PDE has not (to my knowledge) been shown in the US. People are totally clueless and they buy puppies from anyone who calls themselves a breeder. They believe that they have safety if they avoid buying from a pet shop and that breeders are experts who will assure that the puppy they are buying will be healthy.

I honestly believe that, if puppies were covered by the Consumer Product Safety Commission as are toasters and children's toys, there might be some reform. I think it should be illegal to sell pedigreed dogs without regulation. People who buy puppies do not know any better and the vast majority of Cavalier puppies are sold by people who do no screening at all, certainly no MRIs on the parents of the puppies. Saying that the price of the MRI is a reasonable excuse for not doing them is nonsense. If ALL breeders were legally liable for proving that they have done all available screening, the price of MRIs would drop sharply.

As it is now, while there are certainly ethical breeders, it is impossible to tell who they are. People are smart to be cautious but, so far, hardly anybody buying puppies knows enough to sort the ethical breeders from the unethical breeders.

If people who breed dogs want to improve the reputation of breeders it shouldn't be by punishing people who speak up about the very real and serious problems. If ethical breeders had standards supported by the most currant science and held themselves to those standards then there might be some progress. If an AKC registration meant what the common person THINKS it means, the reputation of breeders would not be in danger.

Okay. I will get ready for all the nasty email all over again!

Kathy
 
Not a nasty post, just some questions or simple statements.

1. What did you want the breeder to do? I think I would want them to say how badly they felt, how sorry they were for the dogs suffering. What they would plan to do so this didn't happen again.

2. Could the breeders reaction have been shock (you didn't say what transpired, but I have a good imagination)?

3. Most people don't know about SM- not for dogs or humans, doesn't shock me. All reputable cavalier breeders, by now, must have heard about SM-- or they are really living under a rock.

4. AKC is a registering entity-- like the DMV-- they won't guarantee your car, but they will license it.

5. PDE is on You tube- or was. I watched it in parts, felt like vomiting.

6. All states have some provision for the sale of defective stuff. Many states have lemon laws.

7. 800 dollars for a cavalier is extremely cheap. A well bred cavalier is a minimum of 1500.00(much more commonly 2000-3000USD).

I sell my pet cavaliers (haven't done it in a long time tho) with a 4 page contract telling the buyer exactly what I will do if stuff like this happens. They get copies of the most current health tests for pup and parents. The one thing I can't do is guarantee their pup won't get sick.
 
i have been following this thread but haven't felt the need to comment until now. I think that there should be an onus on the pet owners (of which I am one) to ask for documentation of health testing. I may have been extremely lucky that the breeders of both my Golden and Mindy were very ethical and provided me with copies of health tests etc. without being asked. I thought this was standard practice.

I will admit since Mindy was such a healthy dog I didn't do my full research when it came time to get Max. Although I knew about MVD I had never heard of SM. Max's breeder certainly didn't mention it to me either. Although I asked the right questions I never did see the paperwork I was expecting and wasn't emotionally able to walk away. I did however meet both his sire and dam on one of our visits and got to spend some time with his sire (mom was still with the puppies).

When we decided to get Rylie I was more cautious. I actually wasn't planning on getting a pup until next summer. Sometimes though, things work out differently than our plans. Rylie's sire and dam are both fully tested and clear of any problems. His breeder made sure I was aware that this would not guarantee that he would not develop MVD or SM - or any other health issue for that matter. Rylie's breeder did not even send me puppy pictures (and who can resist those?) until we had 100% decided that we were going to go ahead with a pup (timing was an issue for us).

I rushed my search for Max a bit but I do have to say that every single breeder I talked to when I started my search for a new puppy (Rylie), health tested - was willing to talk about SM and MVD, or any other issue I brought up. Of all four breeders I've dealt with they have all been more than willing to answer questions - I phoned the breeder of our Golden when he had his first seizure at six years old ( for information mainly) , she was sympathetic, honest that it wasn't an issue in his litter (he only had two litter-mates and she kept one), or in his line, while still offering me suggestions and support even though it had been many years since we got Zeus.

The breeders of all of my dogs have been supportive and helpful through the years and answered my questions even if they were years after we got the dog. I may have just been lucky - or maybe the breeder situation is different in North America but I certainly appreciate the breeders that have entrusted me with their dogs.
 
Mindysmom said:
i have been following this thread but haven't felt the need to comment until now. I think that there should be an onus on the pet owners (of which I am one) to ask for documentation of health tests.

I think as yet there isnt enough info out there for potential owners to know all the right questions to ask.
In no book specifically written about the cavalier for potential new owners does it mention the seriousness of SM.
Maybe someone could write to the publishers and ask for an updated version to be published??
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The Real World.

I replied point by point and, as I read it over, it does not have a friendly tone. That is NOT my intent! I am sure that anyone on this forum has true alarm, fear, and dread of SM. I am sure that every breeder who is on this forum is doing everything that can be done to assure that healthy puppies are born. This forum is self-selecting, though. The majority of people breeding and selling Cavaliers in the US do NOT belong to this forum. My concerns are about the people who just don’t care whether the puppies they breed are healthy; the people who say that they would NEVER have their dogs MRIed (that CAN”T be a verb, I don’t know how to say it!). I am speaking about the general level of ignorance and deceit among the great majority of breeders in this country. If vets don’t know about SM here, how likely is it that people without any knowledge of animal health issues will know enough to even attempt to avoid it?

1. I wanted the breeder to stop using the dog at stud and not to sire another 100 puppies with SM. There is some possible way to (wishfully?) think that a dog is not a carrier…until one of his puppies has SM, severely and early in life. After the dog has had at least one puppy with SM, there is no longer any doubt about carrier status. There was some kind of general statement to me that implied that his champion bloodline made it unlikely that one of his puppies having SM could have had anything to do with their dog.

2. The breeder’s reaction was NOT shock, it was denial and it was quite cold and uncooperative. They said that they would have their dog “tested.” They said that they had never heard of SM in their lines and implied that they didn’t even really need to know about it. At the very least, the price paid for the puppy could be returned to help pay the enormous expenses involved in the car of a puppy with SM. While I did NOT ask for or want the money, I DID want to know that the people who owned Levi’s parents were NOT just ignore the fact that he was born. I wanted to know that the owners of Levi’s brothers and sisters were informed and told what they might see if the puppies they owned started to show symptoms.

3. Living under a rock or using their dog “with Champion lines” to continue making money. The dog is still being advertised as being available for stud. They did not want to retire their expensive and prize winning dog.

4. I know that AKC is a registering entity but MANY people do not know that. That is what I was trying to say! Most people think that being AKC registered is a proof of “quality.”

5. While PDE is on YouTube, people have to hear about it and seek it out. If they have never heard anything about it, it is unlikely that they will just stumble over it before they leave home to pick up their new puppy.

6. Lemon laws do not apply to dogs. While I understand that some people have tried to sue to get their investment back, if people do not even know what the disease is, it is unlikely that they are going to sue. If a person buys a car and that car is defective there are provisions to deal with it. If thousands of cars have the same defects (remember Ford Pinto and Ralph Nader?) the company who is making defective cars is required by law to stop making cars with the defect. If the owner of a puppy finds out that the puppy has a serious or life-threatening illness, sometimes the breeder will offer to take the puppy back in exchange for another puppy. How many people want to just give back a sick puppy they have come to love? And if they actually do want to just trade the puppy in for another “model,” maybe there is something seriously wrong with them and their feelings of love and responsibility for their pets. Maybe these people would like to replace their child with a healthy child if he/she is born with a birth defect.

7. While I understand that $800 is very cheap, many people do not know that. They do not understand that they should be concerned about anyone who is selling puppies for that amount. Many people feel that $800 is a lot of money to spend on a pet and are convinced that spending that much must be a sign that they are buying a “quality” dog.

While nobody can guarantee that a puppy will continue to be healthy, people who do not even take the most basic care to try to breed healthy puppies are, in my eyes, committing an inhuman act even it currently is not a criminal act.
 
I did try to use a neutral tone. Sorry if you don't think so.

1. That wouldn't be a neuro recommendation. The only recommendation I got when I got pups with SM was NEVER breed that dog and bitch together again.

2. I don't know who the breeder was, so I won't comment further.

3. Some breeders claim champion lines if they can find 1 in the last 8 ancestors-- to me champion lines would mean sire and or dam were finished champions.

4. Even dual registered in the USA doesn't mean anything, but they were in the stud books.

5. I took note of PDE shortly after it came out. I am not particularly in the 'know'.

6. Puppy lemon laws DO pertain to puppies.. many states have them.

7. What can I say?

Basic care to breed healthy dogs usually doesn't involve a 2300 USD test. I have 7 done-- some of those will never be bred.
 
I would say that any book I've ever read does mention that MVD not uncommon in the breed (I know it's supposed to be nearly 100% by 10 years old but Mindy and the very few older dogs I know (maybe 3 in total) do not have it). Also any books I've read mention that Cavalier's suffer from both large and small dog problems (hips and patellas). I was aware of MVD 11 years ago when we got Mindy although not how widespread it was (maybe it wasn't then?). I've not read much about SM other than on the internet but really you expect a small dog to live nearly as long as you would have a child in your home. If I'm going to share my home with another being for 10+ years (god willing) I'm going to do some research first.

I don't know about puppy lemon laws here in Canada but I do know that after having a dog in my house I doubt I could send it back so it's somewhat a moot point for most I suppose. A couple in my puppy class have a puppy that they got from a pet store. It had parvo. The pet store owner offered to take it back and "treat" it when contacted but the couple essentially said "you must be joking"!
 
I hear what you're saying Kathy. We are on this board because we are genuinely concerned and, one might say, obsessed with our dogs :rolleyes: The general pet owning population is not. Members on this board will be aware of SM.....the general Cavalier buying population will not.

I always thought "AKC" meant something....I've come to realize it doesn't. The general pet buying population thinks that it is a good endorsement, as far I'm concerned it doesn't mean diddly squat.

I'm sorry your breeder was so negtive...they are obviously in denial. I am grateful that my breeder was been so supportive through our various issues. Not everyone has that benefit...but they should. We had a breeder speak at our club and I loved her line about finding a breeder "Your breeder shoud be a birth to death breeder, you should be able to call your breeder and ask questions"

You're right about the majority of Cavalier breeders and their ignorance. Please note that I am not saying "reputable" Cavalier breeders. Our backyard breeders now outnumber our respected breeders. It wasn't that way 7 years ago.

Some breeders claim champion lines if they can find 1 in the last 8 ancestors-- to me champion lines would mean sire and or dam were finished champions.
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Absolutely!!! That is their big selling point....championship lines...and all that means is somewhere back in time there was a champion in that line.

Here in the States....if you see a Cavalier puppy with champion lines for $800....run as fast as you can, there is definitely something wrong there.

I replied point by point and, as I read it over, it does not have a friendly tone. That is NOT my intent!
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Sandy...I think Kathy was saying her post did not have a friendly tone. Kathy, what I read wasn't an unfriendly tone but a passionate tone.

I am not particularly in the 'know'
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You are far too modest Sandy :)
 
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