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Discussion of Pedigree Dogs Exposed

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depends, could the KC afford the postage?

(i won't apologise for my cynicism but feel free to delete message if its a problem)
 
erm i wasnt trying to be funney.

what better way to muddy the waters even more than have another doc turn up and rubbish the facts.
 
Karlin wrote:

"I am very concerned about a private email that is being widely crossposted by a health rep to a large CKCS club in the UK -- which publicly raises doubts about the professional capabilities of one of the most eminent neurologists in the UK, Mr Geoff Skerritt, and his abilities to produce and interpret an MRI."

Thank you Karlin for speaking to this. My jaw is dropped and I have yet to pick it up to think about what to say. I am incensed with some of what I am reading by those caring for our breed in response and reaction to this program, which in my eyes was a call to action and no threat to truly caring breeders whatsoever. I come back to this list to enjoy posts by people with compassion for our pets.

Arlene and her three: J P - Siberian Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel mix, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier.
 
I have proposed the disputed MRI be given to a neutral panel to read as it is intolerable that Geoff Skerritt's reputation to do and read an MRI be called into question. He has done over 600 of them on cavaliers in the past decade and been a frequent presenter at seminars on the condition to the UK CKCS clubs, at their own request. If a health representative for a prominent club is openly circulating such an email, and thus questioning his work when so many breeders depend on its quality, then the club must resolve the issue now that Dr Ingpen's email has been crossposted around the world.
 
Press release today from Geoffrey Clifton-Brown:

GEOFFREY CLIFTON-BROWN CALLS FOR ACTION ON PEDIGREE DOG BREEDING

The plight of dogs suffering from genetic disorders caused through pedigree dog breeding was demonstrated in a recent BBC One Documentary titled “Pedigree Dogs Exposed”.

The programme was deeply critical of the current set up of the Kennel Club and dog shows, in particular their insistence on breeding traits into pedigree dogs which can have painful and life threatening consequences on the dogs. The MP has been highly critical of the Kennel Club’s complete disregard for the animals suffering.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP was pleased to see Carol Fowler from Gloucestershire, whose appearance came as a culmination of a number of years of pressure after she became aware of the genetic disorder syringomyelia, which affects Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, the breed of dog she owns.

Throughout her journey Mr Clifton-Brown has offered all assistance he could to Carol. This has included meeting with officials from the Kennel Club, leading animal welfare vets and scientists in the House of Lords organised by the Companion Animal Welfare Council and with senior officials from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs who have responsibility for animal welfare concerns.

Commenting on the programme the MP said “it clearly showed the persistent criticism and ridicule that Carol has faced from breeders who have a vested interest in seeing the current status quo maintained.”

“However, I know Carol to be a hugely determined lady and I will continue to assist her in persuading the Government that they must act now to change the culture of pedigree dog breeding and showing in this country. It is only if this occurs that the unnecessary suffering of our innocent canine companions can be avoided”

The MP will be writing to the Rt Hon the Lord Rooker, the Minister in charge of Animal Welfare to encourage him to watch the programme and to arrange a meeting with Carol and himself to discuss the future of pedigree dog breeding in the UK.
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This info answers one question.

Still don't understand why any doctor would put himself/herself in this position.
 
Kennel Club answers back

http://www.webchats.tv/chats/Petcare/wwwthekennelcluborguk/

Following the recent BBC programme Pedigree Dogs Exposed, the Kennel club would like to clear up any negative impressions of pedigree dog breeding and suggestions that the dog community is doing little or nothing to improve the health of UK pedigree dogs.


The majority of pedigree dogs in the UK are healthy and the Kennel Club increasingly has in place checks to monitor health issues going forward. In those dogs where there are problems, including those highlighted in the documentary, they have been and will continue to work with breeders to improve long term health through the development of tests and screening programmes.

If you are a pedigree dog lover and have any concerns or questions, then join our webchat to find out how Kennel Club health initiatives such as the introduction of the Accredited Breeder Scheme and research funding can help promote healthy breading across pedigree breeds.

Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary and Jeff Sampson, Canine Geneticist joins us live online on 27th August at 12pm to answer your questions and dispel fears over pedigree dog breeding.
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Can't wait to see what questions make it through
 
Frecklesmom, thanks for that great link.

This is so true. There are many parts to creating change, and the puppy-buying public has a major role, too :) :

Genetic diseases will become easier to manage as genetic testing, and other detection programmes, become more widely available for these conditions. It will then come down to the puppy-buying public to demand these assurances of breeders to whom they are handing over large sums of money, and to decline to take pups from breeders who have not, or will not, screen their breeding animals for these harmful conditions. And it will come down to the veterinary world, the RSPCA, and others, to educate the public on the reasons to make these demands of the breeders from whom they buy dogs. Good progress has already been made with hip and elbow dysplasia in the retriever breeds, but there is still a long way to go with other conditions.

The causes and solutions of these issues are certainly complex and interrelated, and require action from a combination of the Kennel Club, dog breeders, and the puppy-buying public if we are going to see the necessary improvements in the health of the pedigree dogs in this country. It may very well be that, sadly, some breeds have been bred beyond the point of no return, with their genetic variability now so low as a consequence of inbreeding that the variability to re-create a sound, healthy dog has simply been lost. However in most cases I think there should still be hope, if action can be taken quickly and effectively by all concerned. My fear is that the Kennel Club and breeders will be far too stuck in their ways and wedded to their flawed orthodoxy to react in time.

I see pedigree dogs every so often who could only be described as genetic, health and temperament train-wrecks. And, yes, my heart falls when I see the name of one of our (thankfully few) lunatic dog breeders on my consulting list. On a positive note, I see happy, healthy pedigree puppies who grow into happy, healthy adult dogs every day, greatly loved by their human families.

What I would love more than anything would be to see the monopoly the Kennel Club has on pedigree dog registration in this country challenged, and an alternative registry introduced, divorced from the showing world, and placing an absolute priority on the temperament, health, and welfare of the animals it represents. Perhaps...
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It is well said that the pet buying public have a role in this, but as informed as they can be and as much as they ask and see health testing completed, inbreeding depression has to be addressed by the kennel clubs, registries and breeders. The public can hardly influence that unless we want to teach them all about COI, risiks of higher and lower COI values, and how to read pedigrees.

I think COI alone, linebreeding and inbreeding are very important, yet too complicated to educate on specifically in a short documentary.

Arlene and her three:)
 
Davy said:
Kennel Club answers back

http://www.webchats.tv/chats/Petcare/wwwthekennelcluborguk/



Can't wait to see what questions make it through
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I have just posted the question below. I hope everyone possible will try & post a question. It may not get answered but it will get read by someone at the KC & is another chance to show that there is a strong demand for things to change.
Tomorrow I will ask about making parents health tests mandatory before registration.

"In Cavaliers it seems that about 75% of KC registered litters are bred by people who are not breed club members.
That is approximately 8,000 puppies bred by owners who do not have any guaranteed access to information about mitral valve disease, syringomyelia and eye problems.
Will the KC now consider sending out relevant health information, to all breeds, when they send out registration papers,
It is about time some attempt was made to prove KC registration is a mark of quality"

Margaret C
 
And I, pardon the cynicism, cannot wait to see how definitive the answers will be or will they be more of the KC blah,blah,blah...
 
Question submitted :)

Thanking you for alerting us to this Margaret - will be very interested to see the answers....
 
UK Neurologist Geoff Skerritt has said he feels he has the right of reply to the email from Dr Ingpen criticising the quality of his MRIs on the Malvern dog (and thus by implication questioning a diagnosis of syringomyelia referred to on Pedigree Dogs Exposed).

The email was posted widely by the health representative to the Southern CKCS Club, Veronica Hull, who referred to the email as "fascinating and balanced" and Dr Ingpen as an 'unbiased' source ("a true perspective from an unbiased source who has expertise in this subject"). Dr Ingpen, it turns out, is married to a cavalier breeder in Australia who is also listed as their puppy referral contact. Dr Ingpen is also a human rheumatologist without veterinary background. Veronica Hull is the breeder who is questioned amongst the group of women at the very end of the BBC film.

This is the portion of his email that Geoff Skerritt is responding to:

6. Whilst in the UK in 2007 I was invited to examine a number of MRI images
relating to this problem. There was one which was clearly diagnostic and it
is my understanding that the breeder took responsible action. I also had the
opportunity to view the MRI referred to in the BBC programme. I think the
images were poor, inadequate and certainly not diagnostic anatomically.

There is no doubt that the problem has to be looked at seriously but in my
view at least the evidence available does not support the propaganda. I
sometimes wonder which 'bitch is on the end of the lead'.
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Geoff Skerritt's response:

Dear All,

Thank-you for your support. I am surprised by the impertinence of this man! Considering that I lectured in veterinary anatomy for 20 years, pioneered veterinary MRI, was a founder of the European College of Veterinary Neurology and currently have one of the largest caseloads of veterinary MRI in the world, it is surprising that a man with no applicable qualifications should think that he knows more than I about a study that has occupied me for 10 years. The many students that I have examined would find Dr Ingpen's questioning of my ability most amusing. Much of my early work, including publications and presentations, were with Charlie Davies, Consultant Neurosurgeon at the Preston Hospital (human!) allowing parallel study of Chiari in human patients.

Dr Ingpen should know that the best MRI material for interpretation is on the VDU of the scanner -- my reports are so-based. Original hardcopy film is OK but any other reproduction is for illustrative purposes only. I don't know which films he thought he saw but it sounds as if he needs some lessons in basic interpretation.

I have viewed about 1000 scans of Cavaliers ---- I think I know what I am looking at! On both T1 and T2 weighted images there can be little doubt about the presence of syringomyelia; enlarged lateral ventricles are often obvious but I have always conceded that they can be present as a completely separate entity. The most difficult feature to assess is herniation of the cerebellum into/through the foramen magnum; however, if you compare likely abnormals with definite normals ( the same and other breeds ) caudal protrusion of the vermis ( not the tonsils of the human patient ) is clear but you must be able to identify the bone of the occiput ( not easy since it is black not white as on a radiograph ).

I would appreciate an apology, Dr Ingpen.

Regards

Geoff Skerritt
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Karlin said:
The email was posted widely by the health representative to the Southern CKCS Club, Veronica Hull, who referred to the email as "fascinating and balanced" Dr Ingpen as an 'unbiased' source ("a true perspective from an unbiased source who has expertise in this subject"). Dr Ingpen, it turns out, is married to a cavalier breeder in Australia who is also listed as their puppy referral contact. Dr Ingpen is also a human rheumatologist without veterinary background. Veronica Hull is the breeder who is questioned amongst the group of women at the very end of the BBC film.
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Can't tell you how much this has annoyed me. She should know better. I wonder if next time one of her dogs is ill she'll be taking it to the Rheumatology dept. of Southend Hospital.
 
Dr Ingpen's reply to my email

I emailed Dr Ingpen and asked him some questions re his statement. Firstly I asked him if the scan was of such poor quality which he said it was why did he not suggest to this breeder that the dog be re scanned, after all good money is paid out and to get a poor quality scan it is not realy good enough, Dr Ingpen did not answer this question. I also wanted to know how he had managed to view this scan as the breeder had stated that the scan had never left her home, his reply was "viewed scan in breeders home":bang: I shall leave that with your own thoughts.

As many of you will know on The CKCS website there is a list of MRI scanned dogs who I now know to be clear of SM, if the breeder of the Best In show at Malvern was clear of SM would he not be on this site, I can safely say he is not. Having a Champion dog clear of SM one would want to shout it from the rooftops.


HollyDolly,

Cassie, Holly and Gusscavtiny
 
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