• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Discussion of Pedigree Dogs Exposed

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dr Ingpen's reply to my email

I emailed Dr Ingpen and asked him some questions re his statement. Firstly I asked him if the scan was of such poor quality which he said it was why did he not suggest to this breeder that the dog be re scanned, after all good money is paid out and to get a poor quality scan it is not realy good enough, Dr Ingpen did not answer this question. I also wanted to know how he had managed to view this scan as the breeder had stated that the scan had never left her home, his reply was "viewed scan in breeders home":bang: I shall leave that with your own thoughts. I also thought his comment at the end of which Bitch was on the end of the lead totally uncalled for but hey I am the Terrier at the end of this lead.

As many of you will know on The CKCS website there is a list of MRI scanned dogs who I now know to be clear of SM, if the breeder of the Best In show at Malvern was clear of SM would he not be on this site, I can safely say he is not. Having a Champion dog clear of SM one would want to shout it from the rooftops.


HollyDolly,

Cassie, Holly and Gusscavtiny
 
That isn't quite the case. The list on the CKCS Club site in the UK is a list of scanned dogs; any dog that has been scanned, regardless of result, can be listed. (y)
 
Having a CKCS free of SM,Yes we would shout it from the rooftops.Showing or non showing!
 
I've been reading a lot of the old threads about scans and it seems many people have booked their dogs for scan through their various cavalier clubs. who then arranged block bookings.For those who are not members of cavalier clubs or pet owners with ill dogs, what has the experience been like accessing low cost scans?
Sins
 
This is all new to me being a first time pet{cav} owner.I dont know where to start to check if Alex might be a SM sufferer,I dont know the full logistics of SM and how to trace his genetics.How would I go about getting Alex tested for SM ?
 
Unless you suspect SM or a breeder there is really no point in MRIing -- it costs over €1000 to do it in Dublin. It also involves a general anaesthetic.

The possible signs are all on my website, www.smcavalier.com. A vet needs first to check for all the other possibilities before you would ever even consider an MRI. You can't check a dog genetically at present for SM. Good breeders give a 5 generation pedigree with their dogs. That's the only way to check families but most lines are believed to b affected anyway as carriers and really very little can be told from a pedigree -- you need to have scanned dogs in the pedigree and ideally know how related dogs have scanned.

Sins you can do a low cost scan in the UK last I checked. You can call any of the centres and ask about them. The prices are a bit higher though. When I went over it was less to do three or more dogs than to do one or two.

By the time you pay ferry and a hotel plus gas (I don't think it is possible to do the ferry in a day as the centres often are running late) it may be close to the same cost to do a single dog in Dublin given the time it takes. If you are going to the UK anyway then it is worthwhile.
 
I have another few months to decide on where to scan as Daisy is only 21 months old.I understand the vet college charge between €1000 - €1200 for the scan and there's a clinic in Cork who are considering purchasing an MRI scanner but my vet reckons pricewise there won't be much difference!
I think we should consider getting together a small group of us and try and negotiate a price for having a number of dogs done on the same day.
Vet also recommends booking well in advance as there may be quite a waiting time in vet college.
If I travel to England then I have the worry of bringing back an anaesthetised dog who may be sick en route....I really don't want to traumatise her.I know most dogs are fine after anaesthetic but I had one post neuter male cavalier( remember Rocky Karlin?) who barfed for almost 48 hours..
Sins
 
Skerritt uses a sedative rather than GA but he is the only one I think who does this. Mine just slept the whole trip back.

Getting a number of people's dogs scanned is really something to organise with breeders, maybe through the IKC -- pet owners don't really have a need to scan unless they are doing it for diagnosis but then, they'd probably not be waiting.
 
True! Anyway that's something to think about at a later date.
At the moment I'd happily sell her to a travelling circus, she's definitely in heat and eating the entire contents of my home:cry*ing:
Sins
 
Sins,
I had pretty much considered the same as you... getting both of my dogs MRI'd. I knew that it could detect something and let me catch it early, or it could show nothing and I'd have to do another one at a later stage. The cost wasnt my concern (well, wasnt my main concern)... it was more about the GA. I decided not to get them done until they are maybe showing any symptoms... which :xfngr: they are not as yet!
 
Honestly, I think as with any breed-related health issue, it makes more sense to just be familiar with symptoms and watch for those rather than MRI just to MRI. Almost all MRIs are going to show the malformation and many will show syrinxes depending on the age of the dog. If a dog isn't showing symptoms of any kind, there really is nothing to treat. (y)

However if anyone does MRI or has MRId, and has a dog with a pedigree, this information is very valuable to researchers, both Clare Rusbridge and Sarah Blott. PM me if you want contact details.
 
One of my daughter's friends is staying the weekend and her mother stayed for a chat. She told me that her sister who has two cavaliers(one has one eye and the other has the longest legs I've seen on any cavalier)is being given a pedigree male dog with papers for nothing and that she's planning to breed them.
I sat her down and made her watch the first ten minutes and the last ten minutes of the programme and her mouth was open in shock.
Breeding programme abandoned!!
One wonders why you'd give away a healthy male cavalier:rolleyes:
I hasten to add that these are not unscrupulous people,not greedy or cruel to animals....just a couple who innocently think how sweet it would be to have cavalier puppies.....
 
What really struck home was the lady with the B&T saying how her vet bills were over £40K. That's quite a sobering thought for any dog owner.
Sins
 
does anyone know the pedigree of the blenheim dog that won at Malvern.?If so could i have a copy .I think it was disgusting breeding cavaliers knowing that the dog carries a health defect.The woman is only interested in money .And to put healthy pups down is crazy too ,I think we should compile pedigrees of dogs with these conditions.
 
The researchers already have compiled over 10,000 pedigrees going back decades. What those show is that at this point the genes for CM/SM are almost certainly in every line, internationally. There are certain combinations that seem to be more likely to cause SM to be symptomatic --eg cause more pain -- but simply looking at a pedigree with no understanding of what is likely the complex nature of inheritance is not advisable -- better to understand whether that dog has related dogs with SM or is producing puppies with SM. Nonetheless common sense would dictate that AS WITH MVD you do not breed dogs that either are symptomatic and/or test poorly for the condition to hand (with SM, have a poor scan, regardless of symptoms). Eg with MVD, even if a dog does not show signs of heart failure, if it has a murmur before age 5 you do not breed that dog!! A long accepted approach and advocated by the breed clubs but not enforced or required. And -- if you look at the pedigrees of some of the dogs winning championsips including the Malvern BIS -- an awful lot of top ranked dogs from many well known breeders and lines, even some breeders who are club committee members as well -- are being used for breeding but have been bred OUTSIDE the MVD protocol -- eg at under 30 months of age, at which point the dog needs a cardio test and both parents should have cardiac certs. Otherwise the dog shouldn't be bred until 5 years old. The evidence is all there in the online databases.

Pedigrees for dogs are easily available using the kennel (show) name at these pedigree databases online. On those, you can see when a dog was born. You can easily see parents are often only 12-20 months old or so at breeding time (subtract two months from the age of the dog to get its conception time and compare that to the age of the parents). The parents of the Malvern dog were well under the MVD protocol. Check the puppy gazette and you can see the Malvern dog was used many times at stud at well under the MVD protocol (or do a 'reverse pedigree' search to see the same thing. This database offers even more litter results).

Online databases: http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=8896

So let's forget SM entirely for the moment. The MVD protocol has been around for a decade. The clubs -- and their health representatives -- have long advocated using this and tell puppy buyers to ONLY go to breeders who can show the proper heart clearances and where the parents are of appropriate age.

Yet these top winning dogs, who especially in the case of boys, may father hundreds of puppies -- are being bred by breeders who are NOT following the heart protocol, the most basic breeding protocol in the breed because MVD is the number one killer of the breed.

Think about it.

And please: ASK for certs the next time anyone buys a puppy and ASK for grandparents certs and CONFIRM the age of the parent dogs!! Walk away from any breeder who cannot produce cardiologist (not vet!) certs for both parent and grandparent generations and where the dogs are under the age of the MVD protocol.
 
May I add as well that some breeders are reluctant to follow the 30 month guideline for the girls, as it seems to be that whelping difficulties come along when a girl gets a little older before she is used, but there is absolutely no fathonable excuse for the use of a stud dog early.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier. :)
 
I should just say, in case that sounded wrong, that I don't put much stock in that excuse for the girls either. I just happen to have heard it A LOT.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier.:)
 
Does a breeding dogs age affect DNA or affect pups that are born ? I'm not referencing to MVD or SM, but am curious to the effect of aging on cells and how that influences offspring.
 
There have been posts on other forums lately challenging the Rhodesian Ridgeback information on the BBC program.

Further evidence that dermoid sinuses are linked to the ridge -- there are many recent studies that back this from several prominent peer reviewed journals.

Quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16573760

J Small Anim Pract. 2006 Apr;47(4):184-8.
Autosomal dominant mutation causing the dorsal ridge predisposes for dermoid sinus in Rhodesian ridgeback dogs.

Hillbertz NH, Andersson G.
Department of Animal Breeding and Genetics, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Biomedical centre, Box 597, S-751 24 Uppsala, Sweden.

OBJECTIVES: To define the mode of inheritance of the dorsal ridge and investigate if the ridge predisposes to the congenital abnormality dermoid sinus in the Rhodesian ridgeback. METHODS: Segregation analysis was performed, including 87 litters (n=803) produced in Sweden between 1981 and 2002. Data were corrected to avoid bias in the segregation ratio. Chi-squared analysis was performed including 402 litters (n=359:cool: for the evaluation of a possible genetic correlation between the ridge and dermoid sinus. RESULTS: The ridge is inherited in an autosomal dominant mode and predisposes for dermoid sinus. The frequency of ridgeless offspring in the Swedish Rhodesian ridgeback population is estimated to be 5.6 per cent. CLINICAL SIGNIFICANCE: Rhodesian ridgeback dogs that carry the ridge trait are predisposed to dermoid sinus.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top