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Can the cavalier breed be saved?

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Can the cavalier breed be saved ?

Davecav said:
By outcrossing do you mean mating to another breed? or trying to use unrelated dogs?
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CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Mating to another Suitable Breed, this is what this Lady is doing.

Bet
 
Which breed is she going to use, and has she got prior experience of breeding? Also from other posts on this thread, if this is done - it should be done with genetic advice. Is she getting it, and from who. How is this project going to be funderd?
Does she own health tested cavaliers of appropriate age; as this isn't clear from your other posts about her.
And is she going to keep all the puppies so they can be monitored for health problems through their lives, or has she got people lined up who are willing to give homes to the puppies produced to help monitor this experiment. (This will be costly)
Or is she just going to sell the pups? in which case, !!!!

To my mind bringing in another breed will bring in thier health problems too. If this person has no experience of breeding, she sounds like a do-gooder who might soon find herself out of her depth.
 
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Mating to another Suitable Breed, this is what this Lady is doing.
Click to expand...

I totally do NOT support this. I have yet to come across anybody I think has the capability and expertise to do this. The person who I believe is attempting this that you refer to, has nothing of the sort on any evidence I have seen, in the time she has considered doing this. To me it looks like haphazard crossbreeding with little real understanding of what she is doing. Just crossing cavaliers and papillons or cockers is NOT the solution. What about the health issues in cockers and papillons? As Clare Rusbridge makes clear: crosses have every chance of acquiring the genes for SM. It makes more sense to wait for the finish of the genome work to see what, genetically, breeders are dealing with.

IF breeders used the protocols and IF they bred to a wider gene pool researchers as well as geneticists do think the breed has a chance. the problem is -- as Margaret notes -- that almost nobody does this. The same small pool of sires is used, and many of the breeders who claim to follow protocol simply do not. Anyone can go lookup the past year's breed registrations as well as pedigrees online. There is quite a roster of well known breeders, some of them involved with national and regional club committees, who routinely breed underage dogs, use underage sires, and/or still do not use cardiologists for heart testing or MRI or use this info for better breeding. Many of these badmouth every proposed health programme. Some of them privately encourage puppy buyers to not worry about finding health tested parents (for hearts much less MRIs -- I have seen the correspondence from a puppy buyer with the former health rep of a major club pushing the buyer to do exactly this). The breeders say people outside their circle (like me!) make this up or it is only a few renegade breeders (yeah, right...) but the evidence is right there in the pedigrees and puppy registrations, year after year, that this is a widespread problem! Many decent breeders are also alarmed at the number of affected dogs sold on quietly to markets far enough away (eg US/Canada/Australia) that the word never reaches the new breeder/owners that the dog has SM or every sign of it, and as MRIs are costly, the dog will likely never be formally diagnosed but will be bred and bred. There are some truly craven people out there and they know who they are. :x

Outcrossing -- far more laborious and time consuming than health-focused breeding within existing lines -- simply is not going to happen when so few breeders will even properly health test and follow breeding protocols. The CKCSC in the US just voted to downgrade the stringency of one protocol. The UK national committee rejected a motion to have its own members -- at least, to set some sort of national example!! -- adhere to breeding health protocols. Those are the reasons I think the breed is under severe pressure for survival from many directions. And sadly, as long as pet buyers go buy puppies from people who cannot produce cardiologist (not vet!) heart certs, MRI scans, and learn enough to understand their significance, the breed will continue to decline. Breeders cannot afford to breed if puppy buyers do not buy their puppies. Pet people: please do not abandon this breed for your own short term benefit of acquiring an untested, cheaper puppy from a breeder who doesn't care. You, the puppy buyer, are directly involved in making a difference too -- or leaving the breed to sink.
 
Perhaps the answer to the title question is.............

It probably could be, but it probably won't be.
 
Margaret C said:
Perhaps the answer to the title question is.............

It probably could be, but it probably won't be.
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CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

That is the $64,000 Question now facing the Cavalier Breed.

Many Cavalier Breeders have Blown their Chance of Trying to save the Cavalier Breed,the Lack of Data is Delaying the production of the Values for SM in Cavaliers ,not my Words but the Remarks of the Researchers,and has also now been Shown by the Reluctance of some Cavalier Breeders trying to put Hurdles in the way of the EBV Scheme.

For over 20 years the CKCS CLUBS' Breeding Guideline Recommendations have been Totally Ignored by many Cavalier Breeders for MVD ,now it is said that the MVD Problem is No Better than it was 18 years ago.

I don't know what this Lady's Breeding Program is, but the way the Cavalier Breed has Deteriorated with their Health Problems in the Past few years, is the Cavalier now just about an Endendered Species of Dog.

Bet
 
We've discussed the "Cavalier Recreation Project" in threads here in the past. I'd pull them to the top but I never have luck with the search function here - I obviously do something wrong when I search here. Remember, I made the joke about the person needs to learn the difference between "re-creation" and "recreation" - I thought maybe I could book a cruise for my Cavaliers when I first saw the site......

This person is crossing cocker spaniels and papillons in order to "re-create" the Cavalier breed. Forgive me for being blunt, but this idea to me is a cross between idiocy and insanity. The result will be just another designer cross-breed, it certainly will not be a Cavalier.

What was even more disturbing to me is the recent reference on what I thought was a legitimate Cavalier site with the comment that the site owner "wishes ________ the very best of luck with this project." Huh???? I would really encourage that site owner to remove any reference to this project on her site as it really devalues her site.

Pat

P.S. I suspect that Margaret's most recent answer is pretty darn accurate. Makes me glad that I'm an old lady and won't be owning dogs much past the lifespan of my current Cavaliers.

P.P.S. Totally agree with Karlin above!
 
It makes me truely so very sad to read the above....

Margaret said it right, "It probably could be..... but probably won't"


I sometimes have a read through the other Cavalier forum and I wonder why some breeders/comittee members have such problem with admitting the problems that the Cavalier world is faced with.

It makes me sick that everyone who can aren't desperatly following whatever protocol is put in front of them with the thought that it has to be worth trying because there ISN'T ANYTHING ELSE!!! Well nothing else but ignorance anyway.

It makes me understand these student riots in a way, it gets to the point where polite letters and conversations just dont cut the mustard any more.
I'd like to storm up to the UK KC headquarters now and give them a peice of my mind before I end up giving a peice of my precious Ruby's mind to research...... Research that is so important people are donating their loved ones to help, just for some breeders to turn their back and stick their fingers up :bang:
 
Anyone not testing, following protocols, etc. Should drive a car that has had the same standards.

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Let me rephrase ... they should ask themselves if they would drive a car without any safety tests? Breeder, buyer etc. Doesn't matter, it is a dogs life, health that is the result

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I am not smart, but I do care about cavaliers and want to do the right thing. I know breeders are only 50% of the problem, but it should not be so hard for people. Margaret has said breeders not health testing are no different than byb. Then I read some poor person who bought a cavalier who finds out their cavalier has sm. Comments that they must have got the dog from a puppy mill or byb, etc. And its their fault.

I'm sorry, but I put trust in clubs. If they tell me things to ask or not have people follow recommendations then yes they are no different. Rod's website is helpful, so is this, but people (if they even go to research) need some consistancy. Many people will not go to that much research when finding a puppy.

So if people do not want people to buy from byb, PLEASE help us.

I know most people here are in the UK, but someone please tell me what the US is doing.

I see there is a health registry on ckcsc usa with 5+ clear hearts. You can pull up the form which if they all could do this, include MRI results, it would be great. (I also noticed most of the ones on the registry are from a couple people)

If this is not the forum, fine. I just get real sad when I see someone blame an owner when things are not very clear. It seems like an excuse. I don't think I'm a bad owner, did anything wrong, should be blamed, not be able to say what I feel because I am not a member of a club, don't understand the KC committees and voting, don't understand the difference and politics of the breed clubs in the US, still don't see the change on the ckcsc usa mvd protocol, but I need guidence and I hope others do too.

Correct me. Mvd protocol is you can breed a 2.5 year old if both parents were clear at 5? If not, then they should wait until they are 5? That's what I thought I read on the club website.

In order for everyone to work together, please help each other out. I don't think I should not have ella because I don't understand these things. I just wish if there are people that have been around cavaliers for several years, then help the future generations of not only cavaliers but people who are new and want to learn how to help.

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Pat said:
We've discussed the "Cavalier Recreation Project" in threads here in the past. I'd pull them to the top but I never have luck with the search function here - I obviously do something wrong when I search here. Remember, I made the joke about the person needs to learn the difference between "re-creation" and "recreation" - I thought maybe I could book a cruise for my Cavaliers when I first saw the site......

This person is crossing cocker spaniels and papillons in order to "re-create" the Cavalier breed. Forgive me for being blunt, but this idea to me is a cross between idiocy and insanity. The result will be just another designer cross-breed, it certainly will not be a Cavalier.

What was even more disturbing to me is the recent reference on what I thought was a legitimate Cavalier site with the comment that the site owner "wishes ________ the very best of luck with this project." Huh???? I would really encourage that site owner to remove any reference to this project on her site as it really devalues her site.

Pat

P.S. I suspect that Margaret's most recent answer is pretty darn accurate. Makes me glad that I'm an old lady and won't be owning dogs much past the lifespan of my current Cavaliers.

P.P.S. Totally agree with Karlin above!
Click to expand...

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

I only know that the Cavalier Breed might not Survive much Longer because of the Health Problems Afflicting it.

We now hear of I think is a Court Case in Holland for the Breeding of Cavaliers to be being banned.

All I know is that about a year ago there was a Cavalier MRI Scanned , had No CM or SM, I was able to trace this Cavalier's Pedigree back, and it went to the Cocker Spaniel Mating with the Cavalier in the early 1950's.

SUNTOP JOYFUL Cocker Spaniel

CREST BY CANDLELIGHT B/T Cavalier

I thought yesterday I would contact a Geneticist about the Out-Crossing a Cavalier with another Breed , I am just quoting his Reply to me.

He started off by saying it was an interesting Proposition ,I had mentiond the Lady in the Magazine about her idea of Out-Crossing a Cavalier with another Breed because of the Serious Health Problems the Cavaliers are Suffering from.

He said that ,certainly from a Purely Technical Animal Breeding Point of View ,there is nothing stopping the Creation of a New Breed from Several Established Breeds ,nor of One which is Predominantly from a Single Established Breed.

However ,he went onto say, that there are certain Issues that need to be made Aware of,since usually will be a Small Number who tend to be used to as as Founder Animals,( my words , like the Cavalier Breed when only 6 were used in the 1920's-30's ,and is this why there is so much Evidence of the Cavaliers having Heart Trouble in the 1940'and particularly in the 1950's ),what is Critical is the Rate of Inbreeding that tends to Accompany the Developement of a New Breed

He also said that Subsequent Selection for Temprement, Health or Appearance would need to be Involved,also the the Impact of a Novel Genetic Disease .

Here are my Thoughts again .

I have Posted about wondering whether Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have been recently Mated with King Charles Spaniels, the First Time SM had been Noted was in the 1980's, no-body had ever heard of this Horrible Disease before, could this have been the Impact of a Novel Genetic Disease.

Back to the Geneticist , he went onto say ,that when Creating a New Breed ,one way would be to use a Larger Founder Population.

That Presumably the Aim would be to Create a Breed as Close to the Cavalier as Possible ,but with-out their Current Health Problems

I am only the Messenger passing on this Information, but I think that so many of us Heart-Broken Cavalier Owners who have had so many Tears because our Cavaliers dying so Young because of SM and MVD , now realize that there a Good Number of Cavalier Breeders , and No they are not all Puppy Farmers or BYB's of Cavaliers, just Don't Give Two Hoots about the Health Troubles in our Cherished Cavaliers.

What has to be Done , I just don't have a Clue, The Researchers are trying their Best, but unfortunately some Prominant Cavalier Breeders are doing all they can to Hinder the Research.

Bet
 
Unfortunately when it comes to "saving" the cavalier,there are no soft options.
Those who try, and who will keep trying, must feel like they're shovelling snow in a blizzard.
Sins
 
I have Posted about wondering whether Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have been recently Mated with King Charles Spaniels, the First Time SM had been Noted was in the 1980's, no-body had ever heard of this Horrible Disease before, could this have been the Impact of a Novel Genetic Disease.
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I wouldn't think so Bet.
I'm not sure if you've read Tina and Dennis Homes book.
I was drawn to a paragraph where Amice Pitt was writing in 1971.
Forgive me for paraphrasing here as I'm at work and don't have the book.
But what she said basically was that there was a divergence within the breed when it came to heads,one type with the long muzzle and little cushioning under the eyes and the other which threw back to the domed head and short face.
I'll find the exact quote in the afternoon,but seeing as this was from 1971,it would not support the theory that you've just proposed.
Sins
 
Apologies for hogging the thread...
If I leave it any longer between posts I'll lose my train of thought.I often spend days thinking of what I want to say and then forget;)..so when I'm on a roll.....
I don't want to leave anyone with the idea that the cavalier world is solely populated with heartless uncaring breeders...
As you know I spent a lot of time sourcing a puppy in the UK last year and am closing in again on what I want for next year. I have had the chance to speak to a fair few breeders and I have to say noone who I spoke to was either denying or covering up any of the difficulties in the breed.
Some are taking the problem of Cavalier health very seriously. Some are committee members, be it at regional clubs or otherwise, others just regular breeders and exhibitors - they are constantly searching the UK for useful stud dogs, making long term plans for screening of litters and having everything they own scanned and rescanned....submitting all info for EBVs...and trying to find the best homes for pups with owners who understand what they're trying to achieve.
I know of some who are cooperating with overseas breeders and indeed, pet passporting bitches in readiness for travel to the healthiest dogs.
These are the people who have not chosen the soft option but who are determined to do right by the breed...and it would be terribly remiss of us not to give them the support and encouragement that they so rightly deserve.
Sins
 
sins said:
I don't want to leave anyone with the idea that the cavalier world is solely populated with heartless uncaring breeders...
As you know I spent a lot of time sourcing a puppy in the UK last year and am closing in again on what I want for next year. I have had the chance to speak to a fair few breeders and I have to say noone who I spoke to was either denying or covering up any of the difficulties in the breed.
Some are taking the problem of Cavalier health very seriously. Some are committee members, be it at regional clubs or otherwise, others just regular breeders and exhibitors - they are constantly searching the UK for useful stud dogs, making long term plans for screening of litters and having everything they own scanned and rescanned....submitting all info for EBVs...and trying to find the best homes for pups with owners who understand what they're trying to achieve.
I know of some who are cooperating with overseas breeders and indeed, pet passporting bitches in readiness for travel to the healthiest dogs.
These are the people who have not chosen the soft option but who are determined to do right by the breed...and it would be terribly remiss of us not to give them the support and encouragement that they so rightly deserve.
Sins
Click to expand...

You are right, there are breeders that have not chosen the soft option and they are truly to be congratulated, but except for a very few brave individuals they have not stood up to be counted.

When responsible breeders let the people who lie when they say they are breeding to health protocols act as their mouthpiece, then they should not be surprised if they are judged to be the same.

How can we support & encourage breeders that do not speak up and identify themselves?
 
Well said Sinead. There certainly are breeders out there who are addressing the issues and cutting no corners on health issues. I take my hat off to them.
 
I know there are breeders doing what they can doing everything possible and I have never wanted them to be put in the same category but saying there are is not enough.

If we need people to support these and not get puppies from others, it is making it difficult. I know they are there but help the people find them. It should be something to be proud of, not ashamed.

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Bet,
The quote from Amice Pitt in 1971 that I was looking for is this:
"There seems to be a sharp division in the modern Cavalier's head.Some have over long muzzles with no cushioning below the eyes and a tendency to small eyes.Others show an inclination to return to the round head and shorter blunt faces".

Sins
 
sins said:
Bet,
The quote from Amice Pitt in 1971 that I was looking for is this:
"There seems to be a sharp division in the modern Cavalier's head.Some have over long muzzles with no cushioning below the eyes and a tendency to small eyes.Others show an inclination to return to the round head and shorter blunt faces".

Sins
Click to expand...

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

The Cavalier Breed is in such a mess now with SM and MVD ,even although some Cavalier Breeders seem intent on Denying this Fact, that whether Cavaliers have been Out-Crossed to King Charles Spaniels to give them them the Smaller Head required for To-Days Cavaliers won't make any Difference.

There are 50% of Cavaliers 5-6 years of Age with a Heart Murmur, I don't think there is any other Breed with such a Figure as this.

Because of this Figure the Problem for our Cavaliers is that there are now so Many Cavaliers around who are Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes,that probably will be why the MVD Problem is not getting any better in our Cavalier Breed.

I don't know how many Carriers of SM there will be in the Breed ,but when 85 Whelps were recently Researched and all had CM, that is Dreadful Information for our Cavaliers.

Yet there are still Some Cavalier Breeders insisting that our Cavaliers have No More Problems than any other Breed.

Do those Breeders not realize that the Cavaliers are just about to become Extinct?

The Cavalier Breed is in Serious Trouble, the Sooner this is Realized ,then the Cavalier Researchers might get all the Help they are needing for their Research into MVD and SM ,and the Continual Spin being Put out by some Cavalier Breeders that The Cavaliers are Fine is Stopped , the Better it will be for the Survival of the Cavalier Breed.

Bet
 
Bet said:
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

The Cavalier Breed is in such a mess now with SM and MVD ,even although some Cavalier Breeders seem intent on Denying this Fact, that whether Cavaliers have been Out-Crossed to King Charles Spaniels to give them them the Smaller Head required for To-Days Cavaliers won't make any Difference.

There are 50% of Cavaliers 5-6 years of Age with a Heart Murmur, I don't think there is any other Breed with such a Figure as this.

Because of this Figure the Problem for our Cavaliers is that there are now so Many Cavaliers around who are Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes,that probably will be why the MVD Problem is not getting any better in our Cavalier Breed.

I don't know how many Carriers of SM there will be in the Breed ,but when 85 Whelps were recently Researched and all had CM, that is Dreadful Information for our Cavaliers.

Yet there are still Some Cavalier Breeders insisting that our Cavaliers have No More Problems than any other Breed.

Do those Breeders not realize that the Cavaliers are just about to become Extinct?

The Cavalier Breed is in Serious Trouble, the Sooner this is Realized ,then the Cavalier Researchers might get all the Help they are needing for their Research into MVD and SM ,and the Continual Spin being Put out by some Cavalier Breeders that The Cavaliers are Fine is Stopped , the Better it will be for the Survival of the Cavalier Breed.

Bet
Click to expand...

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

I believe that there have been 10 New Cavalier Champions this Year , I wonder if all have been Health Tested,and have been Bred following the Breeding Line Recommendations, if they have that could be such a Good Way of Trying to
Give Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

Bet
 
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