Mate Select

[Margaret C]

Probably a stupid question but is the Mate select website only for the UK or the USA too?
Becky

Not a stupid question at all. but it is only for dogs registered with the UK Kennel Club.

There are lots of UK dogs exported to USA, I know that once a dog has been exported you can no longer access the health results but I'm not sure about the Mate Select results.
I'll have to check.

 

[Bet]

Mate select

At the moment Mate Select can only show the degree of inbreeding, but it will link up with the EBVs.

As I understand it, when the researchers at AHT eventually get enough SM & MVD results to be able to introduce EBVs for cavaliers, the genetic diversity of the dog, and even the overuse of popular sires, will be factored into the results that will help breeders choose less risky mating combinations.

We need the BVA/KC Scheme for MRI scans and a long promised but seemingly stalled official MVD scheme to be put in place and used by breeders.

Listening to the Health Report at the recent Cavalier Club AGM it would appear that every health initiative is disappearing into the big black hole called the 'Cavalier Health Liaison Council'

Looking at their website http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/ they promise...........

"we will tell you what the CHLC has agreed and what resources are available to breeders."

But unfortunately they don't, not even when you write and ask.

The website itself contains virtually no information. The list of health events finishes at 9th April and contains nothing about future health testing opportunities.

It does not inspire me to think that they are actively pursuing the official heart scheme, the setting up of a sperm bank, a database for the dry eye/curly coat & EFS DNA tests, or even a request from a leading cardiologist for help with a research project into older heart clear cavaliers.

I wonder what they are doing? Perhaps someone will read this and post a progress report.

MATE SELECT


Thanks Margaret for yor Post, It's time we stood up for our Cavaliers and say to the Folk who love Cavaliers what is really happening, I have had an E-Mail from Professor Jeff Sampson yesterday ,I don't hold out much hope for the Health Information for the MATE SELECT about the Cavaliers being available for ages.

I think Pigs will Fly Sooner. !!!!!!!

Bet

 

[gamefanz]

Thank you. One grandparent of my new pup comes from the UK. I know she still is in contact with the owner. Would love extra knowledge if this site does it. You can never know enough.
Becky

Not a stupid question at all. but it is only for dogs registered with the UK Kennel Club.

There are lots of UK dogs exported to USA, I know that once a dog has been exported you can no longer access the health results but I'm not sure about the Mate Select results.
I'll have to check.

 

[Margaret C]

Thank you. One grandparent of my new pup comes from the UK. I know she still is in contact with the owner. Would love extra knowledge if this site does it. You can never know enough.
Becky

I tried Mate Select at Crufts and found that a planned mating from two seemingly unrelated and not obviously line bred cavaliers resulted in the puppies COI being higher than the breed average

This really puzzled me until I realised then that line bred cavaliers from show stock are a high scoring sub-population of cavaliers. It is the less inbred non-show cavaliers that bring the breed average down to 5.2%

I have only had a quick trawl through the BRS but it certainly seems to be the show stock that have the above the average COIs.( one litter of puppies at 33.7% and another 28.7%, and many others well in to double figures )

Bringing down the COI in show bred dogs, combined with breeding older health tested dogs in accordance with the guidelines is what cavalier clubs should be recommending to their members

 

[gamefanz]

Interesting information. Thank you for sharing that!

Becky

 

[Soushiruiuma]

This really puzzled me until I realised then that line bred cavaliers from show stock are a high scoring sub-population of cavaliers. It is the less inbred non-show cavaliers that bring the breed average down to 5.2%

I have only had a quick trawl through the BRS but it certainly seems to be the show stock that have the above the average COIs.

I've typed in names that know, all show dogs in the UK, and most were actually lower than the 5.2% average. Ive tried calculating COI's from Thistle's pedigree, and they've been much lower than I would anticipate from your statements. Did I just happen to choose less inbred dogs to look up?

 

[Margaret C]

I've typed in names that know, all show dogs in the UK, and most were actually lower than the 5.2% average. Ive tried calculating COI's from Thistle's pedigree, and they've been much lower than I would anticipate from your statements. Did I just happen to choose less inbred dogs to look up?

That's interesting. Perhaps we need to compare.

Would you like to PM some of the names you are looking at and I will let you know some of the names I have been checking.

 

[Margaret C]

I've typed in names that know, all show dogs in the UK, and most were actually lower than the 5.2% average. Ive tried calculating COI's from Thistle's pedigree, and they've been much lower than I would anticipate from your statements. Did I just happen to choose less inbred dogs to look up?

I had a quick look at the 12 top winning dogs ( Cavalier Club points winners) for 2010.

Ten of these 12 top cavaliers had inbreeding co-efficients above the 5.2 breed average.

The highest COI was 14.2%

Only one had a COI below the breed average. This was 4.9%.


One, very interestingly, had a notice that said


Problem

• We have insufficient pedigree information to calculate a result for this dog.

 

[Soushiruiuma]

That's interesting. Perhaps we need to compare.

Would you like to PM some of the names you are looking at and I will let you know some of the names I have been checking.

Yep. I'll send a quick list.

 

[sins]

According to Jemima Harrisons Pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com

Mate Select uses the Kennel Club's electronic database as its raw material. The database was not computerised until 1980 and and the very earliest dogs recorded in it (picked up from the pedigree data for those early dogs) were born in the 1960s. Mate Select treats the first dogs in the database as unrelated founders - ie. of having a COI of 0% - when that will almost never be the case.

It would seem that the database used to calculate the %COI does not contain many of the dogs pre 1970s,it gives dogs in the 1980s like Salador Connors a ridiculously low %COI of 3.5% when it's obviously over 20%, it artificially lowers the breed average %COI.
At least this is how I interpret it.
Sins

 

[Bet]

Mate select

I had a quick look at the 12 top winning dogs ( Cavalier Club points winners) for 2010.

Ten of these 12 top cavaliers had inbreeding co-efficients above the 5.2 breed average.

The highest COI was 14.2%

Only one had a COI below the breed average. This was 4.9%.


One, very interestingly, had a notice that said


Problem

• We have insufficient pedigree information to calculate a result for this dog.

MATE SELECT


Could I also mention that a Number of Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the UK CKCS CLUB constantly say that there are many, many Cavaliers Registered by the Kennel Club that are Bred by Cavalier Puppy Farmers.

It must be the case then, that it those Cavaliers that have been Bred in Puppy Farms who are Responsible for keeping the COI Figures at 5.5 % for the Cavalier Breed.

Also in another E-Mail I received from the MATE SELECT Office ,it said,

THAT MATE SELECT IS NOT SET UP FOR ,(Please Note This Important Information),HEALTH CONSIDERATIONS.

As Iv'e mentioned previously, MATE SELECT is of no use what-so-ever for Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers.

Those Cavalier Buyers just want to know if the Cavalier Breeder has not Bred from Cavaliers who did not have SM or MVD, and had not Bred from the Cavaliers' Parents before they were 2.5 years of age, and had known about the Health Status of their Parents at 5 .

For every-body ,the MATE SELECT has only very Limited Use, especially when the Cavalier Breeders are not given the Health Information.

Bet

 

[Bet]

Mate select

MATE SELECT


Could I also mention that a Number of Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the UK CKCS CLUB constantly say that there are many, many Cavaliers Registered by the Kennel Club that are Bred by Cavalier Puppy Farmers.

It must be the case then, that it those Cavaliers that have been Bred in Puppy Farms who are Responsible for keeping the COI Figures at 5.5 % for the Cavalier Breed.

Also in another E-Mail I received from the MATE SELECT Office ,it said,

THAT MATE SELECT IS NOT SET UP FOR ,(Please Note This Important Information),HEALTH CONSIDERATIONS.

As Iv'e mentioned previously, MATE SELECT is of no use what-so-ever for Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers.

Those Cavalier Buyers just want to know if the Cavalier Breeder has not Bred from Cavaliers who did not have SM or MVD, and had not Bred from the Cavaliers' Parents before they were 2.5 years of age, and had known about the Health Status of their Parents at 5 .

For every-body ,the MATE SELECT has only very Limited Use, especially when the Cavalier Breeders are not given the Health Information.

Bet

MATE SELECT


I have spent the morning comparing the IN-BREEDING of Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and others in the Recent Kennel Club Cavalier Breed Supplement.

So many of the Puppy Farm Cavaliers have IN BREEDING of about 1.5 % - 2.5% , some Show Cavaliers 14% to in the 20% Range ,even higher.

So is it the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms that are giving the Cavalier Breed the Low In-Breeding Result?

Secondly , I hate to be asking this Question,but is it now time to be considering using some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms for Breeding ,because they have such a Low Rate of IN-Breeding.

Has most of the DATA for SM and MVD for Cavaliers come from Out-With Puppy Farm Bred Cavaliers?


Bet

 

[Davecav]

MATE SELECT


I have spent the morning comparing the IN-BREEDING of Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and others in the Recent Kennel Club Cavalier Breed Supplement.

So many of the Puppy Farm Cavaliers have IN BREEDING of about 1.5 % - 2.5% , some Show Cavaliers 14% to in the 20% Range ,even higher.

So is it the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms that are giving the Cavalier Breed the Low In-Breeding Result?

Secondly , I hate to be asking this Question,but is it now time to be considering using some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms for Breeding ,because they have such a Low Rate of IN-Breeding.

Has most of the DATA for SM and MVD for Cavaliers come from Out-With Puppy Farm Bred Cavaliers?


Bet

"Secondly , I hate to be asking this Question,but is it now time to be considering using some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms for Breeding ,because they have such a Low Rate of IN-Breeding."

Hi Bet

I know you ask this above question regualarly, and I have asked of you - Who is going to use these dogs from puppy farms in their breeding?

So far you haven't answered this. I would like to hear who is going to do this - are you?

On the thread re Bad Breeders I cited a local Back yard breeder who produces very sick stock, I saw a pedigree from one of their litters and there was hardly anthing traceable on it, so the COI of her breeding will probably be v.low.

I wouldn't want any of her dogs used in any breeding programme it would be a disaster! Many many of dogs produced by people who are in it just for money and mass production don't care a toss about the health of their stock. The stock may have a low COI (If you can believe their pedigrees, and that is another issue!) but in the main they certainly aren't healthy.

 

[RodRussell]

It would seem that the database used to calculate the %COI does not contain many of the dogs pre 1970s,it gives dogs in the 1980s like Salador Connors a ridiculously low %COI of 3.5% when it's obviously over 20%, it artificially lowers the breed average %COI.
At least this is how I interpret it.
Sins

Bullseye. This means, to a degree, Garbage In; Garbage Out.

 

[Bet]

Mate select

"Secondly , I hate to be asking this Question,but is it now time to be considering using some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms for Breeding ,because they have such a Low Rate of IN-Breeding."

Hi Bet

I know you ask this above question regualarly, and I have asked of you - Who is going to use these dogs from puppy farms in their breeding?

So far you haven't answered this. I would like to hear who is going to do this - are you?

On the thread re Bad Breeders I cited a local Back yard breeder who produces very sick stock, I saw a pedigree from one of their litters and there was hardly anthing traceable on it, so the COI of her breeding will probably be v.low.

I wouldn't want any of her dogs used in any breeding programme it would be a disaster! Many many of dogs produced by people who are in it just for money and mass production don't care a toss about the health of their stock. The stock may have a low COI (If you can believe their pedigrees, and that is another issue!) but in the main they certainly aren't healthy.

MATE SELECT


Davecav


Davecav .

We have never been Breeders of Cavaliers ,although for over 20 years I have passed on the Information I have collected to the Reseachers about the health problems in our Cavalier Breed,which I have been told by them is Useful in their Research Work. That has pleased me.


















You have just asked me a Specific Question about about who will Breed some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms, I have now been in touch with the Kennel Club about this, hopefully this will answer your Question!!!

You mentioned about a Cavalier from a BYB ,it is NOT always Cavaliers from PUPPY FARMS that cause the Health Problems, a Cavalier Champion with a Low COI was diagnosed with a Heart Condition at 2.5 years of age ,died at 6.

A number of the Cavalier Puppies he Sired also died at a young age from Heart Trouble,and no this was'nt away back in the early days of the Cavalier Breed.

This is the Information I have been able to pass on to the Researchers.

Karlin, maybe I have been wrong in answering Davecav like this.

Just Scrub my Post if I have over-stepped the mark.

Bet

 

[Bet]

Mate select

Bullseye. This means, to a degree, Garbage In; Garbage Out.

MATE SELECT


Could I mention that what MATE SELECT will do will be to Show ,and I am only talking about our Cavaliers, how closely Present Day Cavalier Breeders are Breeding their Cavaliers.

Also it quite easy to see the Results of what close IN-Breeding has on the Off-Springs of to-day's Cavaliers.

The MATE SELECT Information mentions that the LOWER THE IN-BREEDING CO-EFFICIENT THE LOWER THE RISK OF THE OFF-SPRINGS INHERITING TWO COPIES OF THE SAME GENE CAUSING THE HEALTH PROBLEM .

If a Cavalier's CO-EFFICIENT is 12.5% ,then this means ,not my words but the Experts, that there is a 1 IN 8 CHANCE that the Cavalier will Inherit the same Version of Gene from the Same Cavalier that Appears in Both the SIRE'S and DAM'S PEDIGREE.

Here is the Big Worry for our Cavaliers, even to-day there are Many Cavalier Matings taking place which involves GRAND-FATHER TO GRAND-DAUGHTER and GRAND-MOTHER to GRAND-SON

THIS IS AN IN-BREEDING CO-EFFICIENT of at least 12.5 %

THIS MEANS ALL THE OFF-SPRINGS HAVE THE RISK of a 1in 8 Chance of developing CM or MVD

Why I am mentioning those Two Diseases the Cavaliers are Afflicted with,is because

AROUND 90% of CAVLIERS have CM

50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of Age, this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

There are many of To-Day's Cavaliers in the Show Scene with much Higher IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS than 12.5%.


Bet

 

[Davecav]

MATE SELECT


Davecav


Davecav .

We have never been Breeders of Cavaliers ,although for over 20 years I have passed on the Information I have collected to the Reseachers about the health problems in our Cavalier Breed,which I have been told by them is Useful in their Research Work. That has pleased me.




You have just asked me a Specific Question about about who will Breed some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms, I have now been in touch with the Kennel Club about this, hopefully this will answer your Question!!!

You mentioned about a Cavalier from a BYB ,it is NOT always Cavaliers from PUPPY FARMS that cause the Health Problems, a Cavalier Champion with a Low COI was diagnosed with a Heart Condition at 2.5 years of age ,died at 6.

A number of the Cavalier Puppies he Sired also died at a young age from Heart Trouble,and no this was'nt away back in the early days of the Cavalier Breed.

This is the Information I have been able to pass on to the Researchers.

Karlin, maybe I have been wrong in answering Davecav like this.

Just Scrub my Post if I have over-stepped the mark.

Bet

Thanks for your answer, I appreciate it.

I have interpreted what you say about you have been in touch with the Kennel club, that you have asked them who will breed the stock from puppy farms, fogive me if I have interpreted this incorrectly.
So you yourself have no idea who will take on this challenge?

You have said in your reply
'a Cavalier Champion with a Low COI was diagnosed with a Heart Condition at 2.5 years of age ,died at 6.' and pups he sired, also had this problem.

I don't dispute this at all, and it is a shame that he was used at stud. But there have been dogs used at stud I'm sure that were clear of heart problems and even SM? but later developed the conditions, and more importantly (unfortunately) passed those conditions on. Whatever happens breeders will not be able to totally iradicate health problems, however careful they are, as nature is such that a condition can lie dormant for generations and then suddenly manifest itself.

What is interesting is that you have shown that low COI's in themselves, aren't the answer to breeding for healthy stock. Which was the point I was making also.
If there are health issues, then outcrossing (mating for a low COI) at best will only mask those problems, maybe for a few generations, and then they will re-appear. (I know that from studying genetics a little - though not in dogs specifically)

Unless you or anyone, only breeds from healthy stock in the first place then COIs, whether high or low, are not going to make any difference.

The important thing is to use healthy tested, clear stock. I think we both agree on this .

Stock from puppy farms and BYBs on the whole, do not fulfill this criteria.

 

[Bet]

Mate select

Thanks for your answer, I appreciate it.

I have interpreted what you say about you have been in touch with the Kennel club, that you have asked them who will breed the stock from puppy farms, fogive me if I have interpreted this incorrectly.
So you yourself have no idea who will take on this challenge?

You have said in your reply
'a Cavalier Champion with a Low COI was diagnosed with a Heart Condition at 2.5 years of age ,died at 6.' and pups he sired, also had this problem.

I don't dispute this at all, and it is a shame that he was used at stud. But there have been dogs used at stud I'm sure that were clear of heart problems and even SM? but later developed the conditions, and more importantly (unfortunately) passed those conditions on. Whatever happens breeders will not be able to totally iradicate health problems, however careful they are, as nature is such that a condition can lie dormant for generations and then suddenly manifest itself.

What is interesting is that you have shown that low COI's in themselves, aren't the answer to breeding for healthy stock. Which was the point I was making also.
If there are health issues, then outcrossing (mating for a low COI) at best will only mask those problems, maybe for a few generations, and then they will re-appear.

Unless you or anyone, only breeds from healthy stock in the first place then COIs, whether high or low, are not going to make any difference.

The important thing is to use healthy tested, clear stock. I think we both agree on this .

Stock from puppy farms and BYBs on the whole, do not fulfill this criteria.

MATE SELECT


PERHAPS Davecav,

You will know the answer as to on the CKCS DATA ,how many Cavaliers have come from Puppy Farms and BYB's with SM and MVD.

I have also asked this Question from the Kennel Club

I am in no way sticking up for Puppy Farms, they are Horrible Places, but is it not about time the Figures of Cavaliers with SM and MVD was known in the CKCS DATA who have come from Those Places just in case there are not many ,and some that are being Bred there might have help for the Cavalier Breed in the Plight it is in to-day because of SM and MVD.

Bet

 

[Davecav]

MATE SELECT


PERHAPS Davecav,

You will know the answer as to on the CKCS DATA ,how many Cavaliers have come from Puppy Farms and BYB's with SM and MVD.

I have also asked this Question from the Kennel Club

I am in no way sticking up for Puppy Farms, they are Horrible Places, but is it not about time the Figures of Cavaliers with SM and MVD was known in the CKCS DATA who have come from Those Places just in case there are not many ,and some that are being Bred there might have help for the Cavalier Breed in the Plight it is in to-day because of SM and MVD.

Bet

No I don't know how many cavaliers from puppy farms have been diagnosed with this condition, I suspect no-one knows.

Many of these poor dogs will have been PTS becuase their owners couldn't afford the treatment, or passed on to rescue centres.

Just as it's equally hard to say what proportion of cavaliers from show breeders have these conditions..
If I had to put money on it (and I'm not going to:yikes) I reckon that there is a much much higher percentage of very sick cavaliers bred by BYBs and puppy farmers.

Whatever misdemeanors show exhibitors are accused of, I think in the majority of cases you could'nt accuse them of be uncaring, and many do test and breed from healthy stock, just look at the number of dogs on the Cavalier Club website who have been tested. OK there are those who breed before 2.5yrs, but even that might start to change?. The breeder I go my cavalier from did test, though she isn't a 'big exhibitor' and they really looked after their dogs well. but I'm going off the subject a bit now.

 

[Bet]

Mate select

No I don't know how many cavaliers from puppy farms have been diagnosed with this condition, I suspect no-one knows.

Many of these poor dogs will have been PTS becuase their owners couldn't afford the treatment, or passed on to rescue centres.

Just as it's equally hard to say what proportion of cavaliers from show breeders have these conditions..
If I had to put money on it (and I'm not going to:yikes) I reckon that there is a much much higher percentage of very sick cavaliers bred by BYBs and puppy farmers.

Whatever misdemeanors show exhibitors are accused of, I think in the majority of cases you could'nt accuse them of be uncaring, and many do test and breed from healthy stock, just look at the number of dogs on the Cavalier Club website who have been tested. OK there are those who breed before 2.5yrs, but even that might start to change?. The breeder I go my cavalier from did test, though she isn't a 'big exhibitor' and they really looked after their dogs well. but I'm going off the subject a bit now.

MATE SELECT


YES DAVECAV, I am saying no more about it either, just had word back from the KC ,but it's only for my Personal Information.

All I can say it is wishful Thinking that Hoping Prospective Cavalier Buyers will be able to get Cavaliers from Many Cavalier Breeders who Carry Out Health Tests on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, those Breeders are Thin on the Ground.

I have been trying for over 20 years to get this done for the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed and sad to say got no-where

Thr only chance for our Beloved Cavaliers will come from the Researchers into their SM and MVD Problems, and you will know by this time where this going because of Many Cavalier Breeders Thwarting the attempt to help those Researchers.

So if Folk want a Cavalier bought from where-ever, then that is up to them, because they are getting not much help from Many of to-day's Cavalier Breeders.

It is so sad that those Cavalier Breeders who could have done some-thing to stop MVD never did, they were warned in 1983 and never bothered ,and now nearly Every Cavalier is a Carrier of the MVD GENE/GENES ,and it looks as if the SM Problem is going the same way .

What a Disgrace it is that those Cavalier Breeders who could have done some-thing,never did.


THERE ARE NONE SO DEAF AS THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO HEAR AND NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO SEE.

What an Apt Saying for some of the Cavalier Breeders in the Cavalier Breed to-day.

Bet